Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Christopher Culver

Mon Jun 26 19:11:54 -0700 2006

manage

Dear editor, Chinese characters are not ideograms. This is one of those all too frequent myths about Chinese that gets tossed about. John DeFrancis, one of the world's foremost experts on the Chinese language and writing system, demolishes this in his The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasty (University of Hawaii, 1986). Each Chinese character represents a Chinese morpheme, they do not represent abstract ideas independent of the Chinese language.

Differences between the thought processes of Chinese speakers and English speakers are often mentioned in the popular press, but such studies have been found to be based on faulty methodology. Mainstream linguistics does not recognise the notion that language determines thought. This concept, called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, was thought up by a guy (Benjamin Whorf) with no formal training, and is a hallmark of the crackpot fringe of the field. Bauer and Trudgill's Language Myths (Penguin, 1999) explains the folly of assuming languages, deep down inside, are really any different from one another.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

mcrbids

Mon Jun 26 20:40:05 -0700 2006

manage

Mainstream linguistics does not recognise the notion that language determines thought. This concept, called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, was thought up by a guy (Benjamin Whorf) with no formal training, and is a hallmark of the crackpot fringe of the field.

So, I did a little googling, and as usual, WikiPedia comes to the rescue with some relevant information.

The first time I was exposed to the idea that language shapes thought (and not the other way around) was when I read Orwell's 1984. No doubt, that book changed my life, and it's an Orwellian universe we skirt with the Internet. Witness the recent debacle with the NSA and AT&T certainly raises my hackles, especially since, as a long-time SBC customer, I'm now unwittingly one of their customers. For how much longer....?

Back on track, it's certainly true that language shapes perception. It's why one of the most draconian laws conceived since pre-WWII Germany is called the "PATRIOT ACT". it's why recent laws that erode hard-won environmental protections is called the "Clear Skies" act.

Lies? Language limitations?

Oh well, so much hot air spouted in a blog. I don't have the time or inclination to read your beloved "Language Myths" book....

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Christopher Culver

Mon Jun 26 20:47:37 -0700 2006

manage

Orwell was not a linguist, his book is fiction.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Christopher Culver

Mon Jun 26 21:10:39 -0700 2006

manage

Oh, the guy you cited for Orwell's 1984 isn't a linguist either. And citing Wikipedia of all places, are you crazy? It seems fairly arrogant of you to ignore scholars who actually have some training in the matter, and hold up writers of fictions and dilettants as authorities.

The naming of the PATRIOT Act and the Clear Skies act clearly don't determine thought, because one is still capable of realizing the irony of their appelations. As I said, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is not favoured by the mainstream of the field.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

mcrbids

Mon Jun 26 22:53:29 -0700 2006

manage

Oh well, so much hot air spouted in a blog. I don't have the time or inclination to read your beloved "Language Myths" book....

'Nuff said.

The naming of the PATRIOT Act and the Clear Skies act clearly don't determine thought, because one is still capable of realizing the irony of their appelations.

But the name sure does influence those thoughts - and that is just as legitimate. Just like you can't buy a small soda at McDonalds, you can only buy "Regular" and up, limiting word usage changes the likelyhood that you'll think/feel a certain way.

What's the difference between somebody who can vote but doesn't, and somebody who can't vote? Nothing. Neither is of consequence. Similarly, if the certain use of words prevent you from ever considering certain ideas, the fact that you are technically capable of considering those ideas doesn't change the fact that you don't.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Christopher Culver

Mon Jun 26 22:58:09 -0700 2006

manage

What's the difference between somebody who can vote but doesn't, and somebody who can't vote? Nothing. Neither is of consequence.

For linguists, there is a world of difference, as you would know if you actually studied the matter instead of just considering your opinion actual fact.

Rather depressing to see someone who think he knows better than people with real training in the field.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Beryllium Sphere(r)

Mon Jun 26 22:07:03 -0700 2006

manage

hallmark of the crackpot fringe of the field.

Taking it as an absolute is certainly rejected by experts.

I'm trying to persuade my wife (M.Sc. from Carnegie Mellon in computational linguistics) to chime in on this thread. The PhDs she worked with, I gather from what she said in passing, took a complex and nuanced view of the issue.

a guy (Benjamin Whorf) with no formal training

I thought he studied linguistics at Yale, but I've been wrong before.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Christopher Culver

Mon Jun 26 22:12:18 -0700 2006

manage

Whorf's studies were rather unofficial and he did not receive a doctorate in linguistics nor did he secure a professorship in linguistics. He was an amateur.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Kim Holburn

Tue Jun 27 15:53:06 -0700 2006

manage

  He was an amateur.

You say that like it was a bad thing.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

rubycodez

Tue Jun 27 07:56:45 -0700 2006

manage

but how do modern linguists view the religious, cultural, philosophical connotations that are built into the languages of civilizations that are thousands of years old?  Seems I can't say one sentence in Khmer or Zhou Zhow chinese without baggage of ideas of luck/fate/karma, Bhuddism, their views on  trade/commerce, or constant reminders relative status/superiority/inferiority of speaker and listener.:  the only way to really translate would be to have footnotes every half-sentence.  I'm saying I reject the notion that all languages are mutually translatable in the sense of evoking the exact and true denotation of ideas in the listener's mind, only a rough approximation is possible.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Kim Holburn

Tue Jun 27 21:34:12 -0700 2006

manage

I was thinking about this and it does seem clear to me that different languages lead to different thought processes.

In mathematics I used to think that with some problems if you choose or create the right notation then the solution to the problem falls out.  In other words the language you use to think about a mathematical problem influences it's solution.

I remember when I was learning Chinese I saw a study (don't have a reference) that people whose primary language was a pitched language - their brains responded differently to music and  pitch based sounds.  In non-pitched  language speakers the parts of the brain activated by pitch where emotional areas whereas in pitch-based speakers pitch sounds activated the same areas as speech. 

So there are different areas of the brain involved, whatever that means.

The atomic structure of Chinese as a language gives it's grammar some very different characteristics to most European language families.

(Warning, I am an amateur only (amateur: someone who does something only for the love of it))

Unjustified leap

Beryllium Sphere(r)

Mon Jun 26 21:25:13 -0700 2006

manage

Brain imaging demonstrated that the Chinese subjects were lighting up different parts of their brains than the surveyed English speakers. The data only hints at language being relevant, and one of the researchers pointed out

But Tang added that cultural factors may also play a part, such as math learning strategies and school training.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

turtledawn

Tue Jun 27 01:54:48 -0700 2006

manage

I found that while I was studying Spanish and Japanese I approached my calculus homework from completely different directions than those I used when I wasn't studying languages. YMMV. I was of course happy to get through my calc homework so much faster.

Your Primary Language Determines How You do Math

Nat Makarevitch

Tue Jun 27 03:48:03 -0700 2006

manage

A linguist one said to me that speed of mental calculus expressed (questions and answers) in the foreign tongue is a quick and efficient way to assert command.