Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

wowbagger

Tue Oct 16 10:29:22 -0700 2007

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So, did you make sure the simulation recorded the fact that everybody had been exposed? Did you file reports to indicate how stupid the action was with the people who can make changes? Did you go to the local press with that?

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Tue Oct 16 11:11:59 -0700 2007

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Tried- but apparently The Oregonian's blog site is another one blocked from work.  I did file a report with our building safety supervisor though- and mentioned it to the building manager who was checking off the headcounts in the parking lot. 

When I get home tonight, I'll definately be writing a letter to the editor in the Oregonian about it.

I could see evacuating the building for an earthquake, and certainly a full nuclear device set off on the Steel Bridge would cause enough destruction to impact this building.  But an RDD?  For that, the response was almost as inappropriate as the day that we evacuated for a gas leak in the street next to the building.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

Charles E Hill

Tue Oct 16 11:17:09 -0700 2007

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This highlights the importance for either flexibility in the disaster plan, or multiple plans depending on the disaster.  Unfortunately, the powers that be usually like one plan to minimize confusion in a panic situation.

Good luck with your constructive criticism.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4244

Tue Oct 16 19:00:34 -0700 2007

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See my message at the bottom of the chain.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

Charles E Hill

Tue Oct 16 11:10:34 -0700 2007

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The key is to not panic and think clearly.  So, if you just step outside into the sunshine and take a deep breath, we can begin...

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Tue Oct 16 11:13:02 -0700 2007

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Too bad there wasn't any sunshine either- I would have had no problem wasting 20 minutes playing video games on my cell phone, but that's a bit hard to do in the rain....

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

peacefinder

Tue Oct 16 12:14:33 -0700 2007

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Oh, dear. I hope I'm supposed to be laughing at that. Better luck next time.

I guess you can take some comfort from the fact that the Steel Bridge is an absolutely stupid place to use a dirty bomb. Good spot for a regular bomb, I guess, but wouldn't it make more sense to use a dirty bomb in a more densely populated area? Like, I dunno, maybe *downtown*?

Who writes these scenarios, anyway?

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Tue Oct 16 12:42:59 -0700 2007

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That's what I thought at first- until I realized that it's actually a brilliant place for a dirty bomb.  You've got to remember that a dirty bomb *includes* some aspects of a regular bomb- a good one will be a big enough explosion to destroy the structure it's on.  Steel Bridge is *THE* bridge to hit if you're going to hit one, it's the only trimodal bridge in the area.

Add to that the *lack* of good security on this bridge (the scenario was, after all, a ditry bomb in a MAX Car, and that's where the MAX tracks cross the river), but it's also within line of sight to such neat targets on the east side as the Rose Quarter, the Oregon Convention Center, Lloyd Center Mall, and OMSI.  I doubt penetration into downtown would go very far- but get an explosion that throws dust more than 200 feet into the air, here on the west side you'd hit China Town (including the Chinese Garden), old town (Skidmore & Burnside), the park, and of course Union Station.  Heading North along the river you'd hit University of Portland and a truly massive set of residential neighborhoods.

Other than that, I'm laughing at it.  And at the next building security meeting for AED responders I attend, I'm going to ask about HEPA filters on the air intakes.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

peacefinder

Tue Oct 16 17:20:08 -0700 2007

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But how the heck is a person gonna sneak a bomb big enough to disable that bridge onto a passenger-only light rail car? A roller suitcase is about the biggest thing you could get onto MAX. (I suppose one could disguise a bomb as an Ikea flat-pack, too.) I'd think such a thing would top out at about 100lb effective of explosives... less if you've allocated some of your payload to radioactive materials. Though I'm no explosives expert, I'd think a 100lb bomb would be enough to kill most everyone on the MAX car, and *maybe* disable the light rail track temporarily, but not enough to damage that bridge structurally. I'd think two transport modes would be fine after a bit of cleanup, and all three within a week.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Tue Oct 16 17:46:54 -0700 2007

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But how the heck is a person gonna sneak a bomb big enough to disable that bridge onto a passenger-only light rail car?

THAT bridge is a double lift span with a sufficency rating of 65.  Snap the right cable and you'll not only disable it, you'll send 250 ton weights crashing down through the top deck and on to the tracks below.

A roller suitcase is about the biggest thing you could get onto MAX. (I suppose one could disguise a bomb as an Ikea flat-pack, too.)

And now that we have Ikea out by the airport...no, seriously, a couple of bricks of C-4 disguised in a laptop with a cheap kitchen timer would do it- as long as you did your math correctly.

I'd think such a thing would top out at about 100lb effective of explosives... less if you've allocated some of your payload to radioactive materials. Though I'm no explosives expert, I'd think a 100lb bomb would be enough to kill most everyone on the MAX car, and *maybe* disable the light rail track temporarily, but not enough to damage that bridge structurally. I'd think two transport modes would be fine after a bit of cleanup, and all three within a week.

Depends, like I said, on where the MAX car was when the bomb went off- and how close to a window the bomb was.  Get it close enough to either one of the towers, snap the right cable, and the real damage would be done by the weights.

The flash-bang this morning at PIR (simulating the explosion) was a 15 lb shaped charge that blew the used Trimet Bus's front end off- that's what was standing in for the MAX car.

Most of the bridges in the city aren't ODOT- and are slightly behind in their upkeep.

I'd have to think if you were doing a dirty bomb- you'd want 50-75 lbs of explosives surrounded by a thin layer of pure radioactive material.  The key is for the explosion to oxidize it- and blow it out as far as possible from the initial explosion, going for coverage.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

peacefinder

Tue Oct 16 18:18:52 -0700 2007

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Yeah, attacking the counterweights would be the way to go - on any of the downtown lift spans. But 2 pounds of shaped charge in the right spot would do a lot more damage to cables than a hundred pounds 15 feet away in a large moving box. Maybe the bad guys would get extremely lucky, but odds are they wouldn't do any serious structural damage that way.

I think it's just barely plausible, but I suppose the evidence does suggest that most terrorists are complete morons so maybe a boneheaded target is not so farfetched. :-p

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

Charles E Hill

Tue Oct 16 13:00:48 -0700 2007

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Probably the same gov't bureaucrats that write the disaster recovery plans to begin with.

Actually, the best place would probably be determined by a quick visit to the National Climate Data Center, or Weather Underground.  It looks like the wind usually comes from ESE, so a good place would be the Happy Valley area.  It would be ideal if you could get some altitude, like attaching to a weather balloon first.

Not that I have anything against Portland, but I just want to point out that a 5 minute search on the Internet can give you the basics.  Combine that with a recon of the area, and I can't think of any major city in the world that couldn't become a target in short order.

Finally, "the best place" is a subjective term.  You're making the mistake that true terrorists want to kill as many people as possible.  That isn't necessarily true.  The idea is to create panic, fear and a total lack of trust -- you know, terror.  Just setting off a "dirty bomb" in Portland -- no matter where it was -- would do the job.  People would be thinking "if they could do it here, they could do it ANYWHERE!  I'm not safe anywhere!"

True terrorism is extremely cost effective.  They don't need to have things like follow-up plans, or even secondary targets.  Just blow up a couple of cheap bombs in major cities and sit back and watch the mayhem.  No need to be planning your next targets, your victims will turn on themselves.  They'll end up spending extraordinary amounts of time and money on useless "feel good" defensive measures.  They'll pass laws that fundamentally change their society.

Estimates for the cost of the attacks on 9/11 were what, $200,000?  Chump change, and look at how we've responded.  Look at how much society has changed and how much money has been spent in response.

Feh!  The Steel Bridge is as good a spot as any.

no one refused???

zogger

Tue Oct 16 13:40:12 -0700 2007

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UNBELIEVABLE. They need to not reprimand, but FIRE whatever bozo "ordered" that response. 100% stupidest possible reaction to that sort of event. I understand getting people away from windows, but that's it. In a radiation scenario, as many walls and doors etc you can put between yourself and the source is the way to do things.

About as lame as those idiots who ordered people to NOT evacuate the towers on 9-11 when they were burning. Ues, that happened, and for anyone's refresher, the dotgov WAS running a terror drill that day, with the dove hunter in charge, with planes smacking into buildings, hijacked anyway. They lied for weeks about that, then finally fessed up a smidgen, and it got buried on the back pages. It's like we are supposed to just believe it was a "coincidence".

Inside job - reichstagg fire- war on terror = finalization of the coup and emergency "decider" powers. The new enabling act with the cowed populace, with internal and external "threats".

You see any blackwater goons, or dudes in black with zero insignia?

no one refused???

President4242

Tue Oct 16 14:13:38 -0700 2007

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It is a fake, zogger- a drill.  However, having said that; I think whoever ordered the response was thinking line-of-sight.  There are 3 very massive onramps and a three story building between us and the "blast site". 

The thing I pointed out though, is with a dirty bomb designed for maximum dispersal of radioactive materials, that isn't enough.  A big bomb would have thrown dust many hundreds of feet into the air.

The "Actual drill" is a few miles away, at PIR, the local raceway.  That's where all the blackwater goons are....

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

Aaron

Tue Oct 16 14:06:55 -0700 2007

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That's funny.  One of my clients is in Columbia County Oregon and I just heard them get paged out to a mass-casualty response in Portland.  I was seriously wondering WTF was up.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Tue Oct 16 14:14:35 -0700 2007

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That's funny.  One of my clients is in Columbia County Oregon and I just heard them get paged out to a mass-casualty response in Portland.  I was seriously wondering WTF was up.

Yep, that's what's up, a fake terror drill.  Going on in Phoenix, Arizona as well.  And a couple of other cities, I forget where.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4244

Tue Oct 16 18:56:17 -0700 2007

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Be careful President4242. The ODOT Gestapo are on to you. Consider having someone else write that letter to the editor before putting your name down.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Wed Oct 17 06:34:05 -0700 2007

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If so, they're probably on to a dozen others as well- I'm not the only engineer in the Region 1 headquarters who noticed the problem.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4244

Wed Oct 17 08:04:02 -0700 2007

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Just the same, you know ODOT's golden rule, bury the truth and punish the witnesses.

ODOT

turtledawn

Wed Oct 17 09:36:58 -0700 2007

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Crap, I hadn't realized there were two of them.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

peacefinder

Wed Oct 17 10:21:37 -0700 2007

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I'll submit it to 'em if you'd like to mask the source but still have it come from within Oregon. Send it to my e-mail listed on /. and I'll forward it on as something I heard "from a source within ODOT." Include any distribution restrictions in your e-mail. (Willy Week ok/not, blogs ok/not, etc.)

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Wed Oct 17 10:46:41 -0700 2007

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I'd already done so- along with several of my other friends in ITS.  However, it appears I'm going to have to be more careful what I post on this site in the future.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

peacefinder

Wed Oct 17 11:08:57 -0700 2007

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I'd give it to a local blogger (bojack.org), but he has a thing about public employees posting on company time, so I don't think that'd be a real sympathetic audience for you. :-p You might try tipping him after hours, though.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Wed Oct 17 11:56:58 -0700 2007

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I'm actually on sick day today- so I'm not posting on company time....:-)

But I might try that, if my LTE isn't published in the next week or so(or somebody else's isn't).

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4244

Wed Oct 17 17:44:55 -0700 2007

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I don't want to see people stop posting the truth. I just don't want to see people get punished for speaking the truth.

Oregon Department of Transportation, Region 1 headquarters, Topoff 4 results

President4242

Thu May 22 09:55:55 -0700 2008

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And yet I was...in the end I was fired for it.