Growing old disgracefully.

Mon Feb 05 08:28:32 -0800 2007
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I live in the UK, and 3 days ago I underwent a fairly minor surgical procedure... So far, it sounds ordinary enough, until I tell you what the procedure was, at which point people, especially male friends, start acting shocked.

I live in the UK, and 3 days ago I underwent a fairly minor surgical procedure, about 2 hours on the table under general anaesthesia.

Because I am in the UK this procedure was entirely free at the point of delivery, thanks to the NHS (National Health Service), including the hospital bed for a couple of hours of recuperation, and the handful of drugs handed out prior to discharge, which included 500 mg Paracetamol, 50 mg diclofenac sodium, 625 mg amoxicillin / clavulanic acid, and chlorhexadine gluconate.

So far, it sounds ordinary enough, until I tell you what the procedure was, at which point people, especially male friends, start acting shocked.

It was a full dental clearance.

A full dental clearance does not mean simply having all your (remaining) teeth pulled out. It is a far more thorough operation, all traces of nerve tissue and so on associated with the teeth are removed, the holes or sockets in the skull and jawbone where the teeth locate are cleaned out, if there are any ridges or protuberances in the skull or jawbone associated with how teeth were held in, these are also removed and dressed up, gums are split and scraped clean, then sutured up.

I had my own reasons for opting for this procedure, and I would not recommend it (or anything else) to anyone else, it was right for me, YMMV.

However,

If George Bush wishes to inspire "shock and awe" into the Iranians, judging by my experience with my friends, all he needs to do is have all his teeth extracted and then tell them what he has done.

Except, George Bush, like myself and my friends, lives in a country where "cosmetics" has become an ever more intrinsic part of "medicine", and the Iranians do not. Iranians will not tremble at the thought of a middle aged man (middle aged hell, I'm still YOUNG I tell you.)with no teeth.

When I grew up you could hardly stand at a bus stop without seeing at least one person with a lump on their neck, a carbuncle, or a mole like a sea anemone... as kids we would stare and point and laugh, but such sights were more common than seeing someone in a wheelchair.

Somewhere along the line, men became.... "pretty", no other way to describe it.

My dad had about 3 heart attacks before he went to see the Doctor, no fuss, just as long as he could go back to work in the afternoon... my grandfather went to the gold rush in Australia and pulled his own teeth in the outback, but nowadays a slightly asymetrical eyebrow line appears to be cause for grave concern and immediate cosmetic surgery.

What I find fascinating about all this, is that cosmetic considerations, and increasingly, not even pure cosmetic, but psychological based upon perceived self body image, considerations are becoming increasingly inextricably intertwined with basic medicine.

Back in the day when a tooth died it was dead, and it got pulled, thus removing a source of toxins from the blood supply to the brain.

Nowadays it appears that various root canals and crowns and other procedures are preferred, to give that sparkly white smile of "confidence" that the toothpaste adverts tell us we all need. The purely medical considerations have been subsumed to the cosmetic considerations.

Perhaps the thing that stunned me most about the responses I got, was that two of the more shocked ones came from a man who has had laser eye surgery, and from a man who has had a vasectomy.

Neither of these were required medically, they were both elective surgery, and yet, such solutions, and the various forms of dental surgery, appear to be becoming so routine that the "elective" part of "elective surgery" is becoming omitted, it is just plain surgery now, routine.

Laser eye surgery makes you look better, no need for spectacles for driving, somehow makes you a better man.

Vasectomy, I dunno, in some politically correct way this is also alleged to make you a better (new) man.

Having your teeth pulled out, oh noes, how could you do that to yourself?

I used to read a lot of Science Fiction, Larry Niven's Louis Wu with his amazing autodoc, yeah, it made him younger, but I do not recall anything about it correcting facial anatomy to make it more pleasing.

It is no wonder that it is next to impossible to find an NHS dentist in the UK, every dentist there is is filling up his schedules with elective cosmetic dentistry procedures, I'm sure similar things are happening in medicine, replacement hips and suchlike have to wait in the queue because all the beds are full of people having rhinoplastys, tummy tucks and their intestines stapled.

Mr Perens when asked to speak about Security, will talk about Security Theater displacing actual security, even though the Security Theater often costs more than true Security, as well as displacing true Security.

I see parallels here, Medical Theater (forgive the pun) displacing true Medical procedures.

Sigmund Freud had a relative called Bernaise, he coined the phrase "Public Relations" because the word "propoganda" had too many negative connotations.

Bernaise was responsible for United Fruit enlisting the CIA to overthrow democratically elected central american governments, and selling it as freedom and democracy in action.

50+ years of PR later, even such fundamental things as what constitutes the psyche of a man have been fundamentally altered by the incessant programming of the PR man.

I can now have a beautiful smile with dentures, and no more dentist bills or dental pain, ever, and this is somehow seen as being vastly inferior to having a mouth full of half a century old teeth that have been reworked more than Terminal 3 at Heathrow, that are basically dead and leeching poisons into my brain via my bloodstream.

Since having had a "full dental clearance" I have been researching it, there is little enough material online, but what there is is fascinating, it has allegedly cured brain lesions, seizures, depression, and a whole host of other things.

I cannot prove it because I have no extensive before and after blood works, but I now (3 days after surgery) sleep soundly, feel more invigorated and alive, have a sharper mind and in many ways a clearer mind and clearer eyesight, in that I notice and rejoice in small things that went unnoticed before, and a calm stomach.

I am utterly convinced that removing my teeth has removed a source of toxins that leeched into my bloodstream and thence into my brain and the rest of my body.

I was never a "New" or "gillette" man anyway, so I have suffered zero impact on my psyche or self esteem, and unlike the men, the women I know have taken it in their stride, barely worthy of comment.

Conclusions.

Clearly, during my lifetime many things that either simply were not possible, or were incredibly expensive, have now become routine.

Whether cosmetic surgery became routine because the technology advanced and made it possible, or because the PR machine made enough people want it that the technology was made to advance, is an exercise for the Technocrats to discuss.

What is clear, whether chicken or egg came first, is that whatever is available will be used, irrespective of purely medical reasons, provided any supposed benefit can be claimed.

DNA engineering of the foetus is still some way off, and it seems clear that surgical alteration will come first to all areas.

Given that this is Technocrat, this means as soon as an embedded into the brain and auditory nerves ipod becomes possible, people will start queueing.

Utopian futures involving cybernetically enhanced supermen are a fantasy.

Dystopian futures involving cybernetically RFID implanted citizens of 1984 are a fantasy.

The reality will be people queuing up to pay their monthly subs to cybermed in order to ensure the have the latest hdtv retinal implants, dolby thx aural implants, apple dildonic implants and of course just pick your desired body form out of a catalogue.

At that point Darwinian evolution will no longer be in the driving seat as far as short term evolutionary processes are concerned, but I predict that pushing Nature aside will just make Nature push back harder in some other area.

Far from a Gattaca type future where only the genetically screened and perfect may breed and be citizens, I feel we may eventually enter an era when only the un-modified mongrels amongst us who retain an unaltered copy of evolution within our genes will be allowed to, or able to, breed.

I'd like to hear other Technocrats opinions on this, and please identify your country of residence, as I feel that the background radiation of PR wherever you live will colour your opinions more than somewhat.

Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 09:53:48 -0800 2007
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USA
My mother got dentures when I was a kid, because of recurring dental problems. She progressively became less and less happy with them, because with time the shape of the bones under the gums changes, and the fit degrades. Perhaps this could be solved with a refitting, and having been raised in the Great Depression, she can't bring herself to do this. I don't believe she had the thorough job that you did, rather simple extractions.

My own dentist has told me that for the long haul, you're best off with as much of the OEM equipment in there as possible, that none of the aftermarket accessories really work as well as the original. To that end, original teeth are best, crowns on the living roots next-best, crowns on a root-canal next, etc.
Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 13:06:54 -0800 2007
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Am I cynical, or is it pure coincidence that what your dentist feels is best for you happens to coincide with what is best for his revenue stream? If there is a corollary, then the problem ALL dental patients face is one of figuring out if the advice given is the absolute best irrespective of financial cost. This problem is compounded when cosmetic considerations are lumped in with purely medical ones. How many mechanics will tell you to scrap your old car and buy a pushbike? Even though for many people this is a practical and sensible alternative.
Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 16:31:14 -0800 2007
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Good point, but reinforcing that I have my mother's unhappiness with her dentures. Also, from everything I've heard, in general prosthetics just aren't as good as properly functioning OEM, thinking of things like joint replacements, etc. One can make a good argument against heavily-modified OEM, like a root-canal/crown.

root canals cosmetic?

Mon Feb 05 09:54:46 -0800 2007
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sure, there's alot of cosmetic dentistry and other medical procedures, but root canals get rid of infection, and a crown might be needed after that.  Removing a tooth surrounded by other teeth causes problems with drifting of the other teeth and also of opposing tooth.  Healthy teeth don't leak toxins into your blood, infected ones do.  If you had a mouthful of infected teeth, something has failed.  Maybe your genetic makeup caused you an unavoidable problem, or maybe  dentistry in your country  failed to maintain your teeth, or you failed to take proper care of your teeth (I know for myself I could have done better during my life).    So I'll say "oh no!", not because of cosmetic concerns, but because it's possible for most people to have teeth that last a whole lifetime these days, but instead you suffered some bad problems for a very long time and you couldn't have the benefit of healthy teeth for a lifetime.
Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 10:13:18 -0800 2007
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From the U.S., I agree with your conclusion.

Convenience dismembers responsibility.  We live in a society that no longer does things, it acquires things.  Television has skewed our self-image to the point where we confuse ourselves with the fiction we watch.  Characters are now our friends.  We more faithfully keep appointments to watch our favorite programs than we do to see our families.

So we are now at a stage where we have completely confused the concept of doing something (and being the person that has done it), and having something done to us (and being the person who had something done to self.)

Take the prevalence of tattoos as an example.  People get tattoos nowadays to show other who they really are.  It's a way to distinguish yourself and express your identity.  Lost on the recipient, is the fact that anyone can walk in to the corner tattoo parlor and walk out with an ink stain.  It doesn't take any skill, effort, or action.  In fact, tattoos are so commonplace that it's not even special.

I am not suggesting that the past was full of Kerouacian individualists blazing their respective paths to a post-modern Utopia.  I am suggesting that it use to be inevitable that people did things, and identity composed the things that a person had done.

I would posit that your friends are shocked because you elected to be 'the man with no teeth.'  This is what you've had done to you.  They don't see 'the man who fixed his mouth,' because that is something you actually did.  In a world of convenience, they are not responsible for their own actions, so they will not assume that you identify with yours.
Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 13:45:50 -0800 2007
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"I would posit that your friends are shocked because you elected to be 'the man with no teeth.' This is what you've had done to you. They don't see 'the man who fixed his mouth,' because that is something you actually did. In a world of convenience, they are not responsible for their own actions, so they will not assume that you identify with yours."

Thank you for that, you have highlighted the difference in viewpoints nicely, and I had completely missed that point, but you are quite right, that is how they see it, but not the women, isn't that strange.

Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 10:13:25 -0800 2007
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"I am utterly convinced that removing my teeth has removed a source of toxins that leeched into my bloodstream and thence into my brain and the rest of my body."

You said that or something similar several times throughout the story. This reminds me almost of homeopathy - you are believing this on no proof. You said so yourself. "Back in the day," teeth were pulled simply because they couldn't restore them to full working order, not because they were a source of toxins to the brain.

In any cases, there are points I agree with and points I disagree with. I disagree with the entire notion of having all your teeth pulled. And all that junk about having any ridges in the jawbone touched up, does that not strike you as quite similar to having other parts of your body touched up cosmetically? Does having an operation performed so that you can wear dentures, which will always be perfectly aligned and white, strike you as quite similar to having your nose touched up because there is some oddity to it?

I don't think having your teeth removed, for any reason, is better than saving them. Dentures and real teeth perform the same function, but I prefer my original teeth to manmade perfection.

I, personally, believe that cosmetic and optional surgeries are quite ridiculous and pose an unnecessary strain on the medical systems in any country. They reduce the available beds for patients who actually need a surgery to live or regain their mobility.

and as a post script, I live in Canada and always have. (east coast. Location within the country could play a big role in your perception.)
Growing old disgracefully.
Mon Feb 05 10:38:20 -0800 2007
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Interesting story - thankee.   There are also studies underway to implant threaded posts in the jaw bone so that one can have more sturdy fake teeth spun on at need  (perhaps one could fasten on some Dracula teeth just to spook the kids?).

But where does it end?  That appendix might go bad, better rip it out; as well as tonsils, toenails and testicles...

That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

By the bye, having done my post-doctorate work in an ophthalmology lab i'm not at all convinced that having one's lens lasered isn't a good way to potentiate cataracts at some statistically significant rate in later years - but perhaps that risk is worth shedding the goggles [shrug]

 

Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery

Mon Feb 05 11:28:27 -0800 2007
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I don't know anything about aesthetics or psychological motivations behind either of those surgeries.

If I were to have corrective eye surgery, it would have zero to do with how I look and be entirely about how I see. I don't care what glasses look like, they break and are a PITA to carry around and keep with you. Contacts are hardly better. A one time surgery to no longer have the hassle seems like a good idea to me. And it has nothing to do with "cosmetic" and everything to do with pragmatism.

Same goes with vasectomies. I had one, not because it makes me better or whatever. I feel no different. But now my wife and I are set as far as birth control goes. Again, a one-time surgery to never have to mess with it again for life. $15 office visit. 48 hours on the couch watching the tube. Done.

Pragmatism. What's not "manly" about that?
Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery
Mon Feb 05 13:43:30 -0800 2007
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I need to stress something before I reply.

We are different people, and we have different value judgements on various things.

In order to reply honestly I must respond as if your statements about yourself were applied to me, and this should not be taken as a judgement on your choices, just an explanation of mine.

a/ yeah, glasses break, slip down your nose, crap in the rain, etc etc etc. I should know, as an engineer / biker perhaps the only thing I haven't done that glasses are crap at is scuba diving or space flight.

Running shoes have their problems too, so do clothes, and that's how I see glasses.

As an engineer (mechanical) glasses saved a lot of crap from grinding discs and suchlike from flying into my eyes that contacts would not have, and I was always given to understand that the microwaves from an arc welder would dry the liquid between a contact and the eyeball and fuse one to the other anyway.

The FUNDAMENTAL issue for me is this, if I lose or break my glasses it is like losing my shoes or clothes, I revert to me, that is the worst case scenario, and one easily fixed, just buy replacements.

Contacts have too many ways to go wrong that leave you worse off, and laser eye surgery is just plain frightening, things might be slightly out of focus, but I have a perfect field of vision, excellent night vision, excellent colour perception, excellent motion perception, and with the advent of computer screens I do not even need a magnifying glass to read small text, so I could manage.

b/ vasectomies, maybe I am a chauvinist misogynist pig, but I can't get pregnant, so I can't see any reason why I would even consider interfering with the plumbing of something that has had more influence over my life than anything else.

my attitude is simply that those who bear the burden need to take the precautions.

if I was a woman, well, I am not a woman so I cannot comment, I am a man, and quite frankly I'd rather turn to homosexuality or strictly oral sex only or no sex, before resorting to a vasectomy

You state that you see your approach as "pragmatic" and ask what is not manly about it.

Pragmatic has two distinct meanings, the old one meant skilled in law or business, the one I guess you meant was practical as opposed to idealistic or intellectual.

I would have to say that laser eye surgery and vasectomies are not pragmatic, because by definition they carry risks in addition to the inevitable and acceptable consequences.

These risks are exactly the sort of thing we are unskilled at assessing, how can one possibly guess the impact of early blindness, how can we possibly guess the impact of prostate cancer? We cannot, because the instant these things become true it no longer matters that we are the 1 in a million statistical freak.

The procedure I elected to have cannot have any long term side effects that leave me worse off than I am now.

As to what is not manly...

I do not see being manly as having any connection with massive sperm counts, eagle eyes, lush hair, or hollywood smiles.

Though the advertising industry would like me to believe otherwise.

I think the whole idea of being manly, or femenine, or effete, is a bit of a laugh, we are, as inidividuals, what we are, and we all have some of those characteristics, what of it.

No, my question would be impossible to answer, in a world where there were no toothpaste adverts, no grecian 2000 adverts, no gillette adverts, no feminist lobby groups, no advertising sponsores magazines for "men", would you still have chosen laser eye surgery and a vasectomy.

I fancy you might not have, which begs the question, if the memes have been steadily implanted into your brain for 50 years, did you actually choose of your own free will, or did you simply make a predictable selection as a result of social pressure in the anthropomorphic sense?

Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery
Mon Feb 05 18:39:57 -0800 2007
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but I can't get pregnant, so I can't see any reason why I would even consider interfering with the plumbing

my attitude is simply that those who bear the burden need to take the precautions.

The procedure I elected to have cannot have any long term side effects that leave me worse off than I am now.

You mess with the plumbing because you love your partner, and respect a decision you've made together not to have any more children for whatever reason, because becoming pregnant carries far more risk than a vasectomy even if that pregnancy is not carried to term.

 

Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery
Tue Feb 06 02:40:03 -0800 2007
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I will counter.

If my partner loved me, she would not allow me to have a surgical procedure, whose sole purpose was contraception. Vice versa too.

Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery
Tue Feb 06 07:08:08 -0800 2007
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My turn.....

We decided to not have any children. The risk to my wife of either taking continued birth control for 20-some-odd years or going under general for a invasive surgery was much more than my 10 minute out-patient vasectomy*. I recovered in a weekend, fully in a week, and now we don't have to worry about anything for the rest of our lives.

We love each other very much, which is why I wanted to get the 10 minute procedure, and my wife was worried, but knew that it was the least dangerous option out of the three, so that's what we decided to do.

*the actual operation was about 10 minutes, I was in the room for about 30 total, 10 before and 10 after.

Take care,
-Frank
Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery
Tue Feb 06 08:43:35 -0800 2007
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I read, "thus removing a source of toxins from the blood supply to the brain" and I thought of "our precious bodily fluids". If you have infected teeth following dental repair (thus leaking those toxins into your precious bodily fluids) it is time to find a new oral surgeon.

I don't see how George Bush is related to dental care. Oh no, the horrible advertisers!

And although an arc welder can act as a simple spark gap transmitter, the spectrum RF spectrum will likely be concentrated to lower frequencies than microwaves (that is much less than GHz levels). Even if a small amount of microwave radiation was generated, the low levels would certainly not be enough to cause heating at the distances your eye would be from the arc. However, the arc does generate waves higher up on the spectrum in the form of UV light. That UV light is damaging to the eye but wearing proper safety goggles mitigates this issue.

You mentioned being a Mech Eng, so you should be able to handle design trades, as well as verifying your information. I'm reminded of timecube. It seems you wish to discuss medical and cosmetic responses to social norms specifically revolving around your view of manhood, but you've done so in a very chaotic way. (I'm an EE not a sociologist, so I can't comment too deeply there)

The only thing that I can somewhat agree with you on is "my attitude is simply that those who bear the burden need to take the precautions." Let me propose another way to say something similar: "An individual has many options for ________, each with various costs, benefits, consequences and rewards. For the given individual, certain options may be better or worse depending on their situation and desires. It is best if the individual is informed of these costs and benefits so they may make their decision on _______". You can fill in ______ with whatever you want actually. 

You chose to get all your teeth removed. Great, if that's what worked for you. It seems as if you have some misunderstandings of oral health and a concern that dentists are only concerned with revenue. As far as consquences, did you factor in properly that the surgery itself, including general anathesia was a risk itself? You say you have excellent vision, great. That works for you. You say you'd rather be homosexual than get a vasectomy, great that works for you, make sure to tell your partners that. I'm still thinking this sounds timecube though, sorry.
Vasectomies and Laser Eye Surgery
Wed Feb 07 05:12:45 -0800 2007
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The FUNDAMENTAL issue for me is this, if I lose or break my glasses it is like losing my shoes or clothes, I revert to me, that is the worst case scenario, and one easily fixed, just buy replacements.

Can't disagree there.  That's what I do.  But it is difficult to equate prescription eye glasses with shoes for two reasons: (1) cost, and (2) durability.  My shoes cost $10.  They last generally a good while before they start breaking down.  My prescription eye glasses cost me $177.  They were scratched in three weeks (even with the "scratch proof" surface), misplaced, and broken into bits within a month.  If I had to replace my shoes on average every couple months at a cost of $177 each time, I'd go barefoot.  Just like I don't wear the glasses I ought to.

laser eye surgery is just plain frightening

To be clear, I haven't had it.  I know several people who have and they are all pleased as punch with it.  None of them did it for aesthetic reasons.  And all of them researched the risks and benefits before hand.  I have been hesitant to have just such a surgery, even though it would nice to have 20/20 vision again.  I hesitate because: (a) my sight isn't *that* bad, (b) I don't know the risks, and (c) cost.  As for the risks, I wonder how much of your own emotion hasn't clouded your judgement of the procedure as "frightening" versus actual documented risk factors.  All I do know is there are thousands upon thousands of them done each year and it is an outpatient procedure, indicating much less risk of complication during the procedure itself, as opposed to a surgery requiring two hours of general anasthesia.  I have my own emotionally clouded views on general anasthesia and would not consider anything requiring it "minor" surgery.

Since having had a "full dental clearance" I have been researching it,

I found this statement comical.  I assume you researched it before as well; but, the statement made me think: "shouldn't that be the other way 'round?"

there is little enough material online, but what there is is fascinating, it has allegedly cured brain lesions, seizures, depression, and a whole host of other things.

And echinacea allegedly cures the common cold.  Not that any scientific study can confirm it.  Still, homeopathy aside, undergoing any surgery based on "alleged" benefits versus viable, provable, factual benefits seems a rather cavalier approach to medicine.

maybe I am a chauvinist misogynist pig, but I can't get pregnant, so I can't see any reason why I would even consider interfering with the plumbing of something that has had more influence over my life than anything else

Maybe you are a chauvinist misogynist pig. :-)

my attitude is simply that those who bear the burden need to take the precautions.

Do you bear no burden if you father a child?  The burden isn't about child BEARING, it's about child REARING.  Birth control isn't for stopping labor, it's for stopping parenthood.  I cannot and will not believe that you actually think you bear no responsibility if you father a child so you have no need to take any precautions against it.

I'd rather turn to homosexuality or strictly oral sex only or no sex, before resorting to a vasectomy

Again, I wonder if you are even aware of the actual risks vs. benefits of vasectomies as compared to other firms of birth control.  Yours is an extreme point of view and it belies an ignorance of the facts.  To be clear, I *have* had a vasectomy.  I went in, was under a local only, (I asked if I could watch but the doctor thought it would be best if I didn't even though I assured him it was not a problem), the procedure itself took less than ten minutes, I was lucid and spoke with the doctor the whole time (asked him to describe what was going on since he wouldn't let me watch, asked him questions about what kind of anasthetic he used, was there an agent to restrict blood flow, etc.), then I got up, put the ice pack on and drove home.  Sat on the couch for a day and was fine.

The important thing in any surgery is to research and make a well informed decision.  I went to a doctor who has an excellent reputation, who had done thousands of them, who had never had any lawsuits or complaints file against him.  I researched the risks vs. benefits.  Vasectomies have been performed in the US since at least the 1960s.  There is NO indication of increased risk of prostate cancer or testicular cancer.  There is NO indication of any long term side effects.  When looked at as opposed to tubal ligations, a woman's sterilization option, it is lower immediate risk and has lower long term risk potential.  Sterilization works for my wife and I because it is more effective, cheaper, and less cumbersome than any other form of birth control available to us.

Pragmatic has two distinct meanings, the old one meant skilled in law or business, the one I guess you meant was practical as opposed to idealistic or intellectual.

Yes, I suppose I just should have said "practical."

These risks are exactly the sort of thing we are unskilled at assessing, how can one possibly guess the impact of early blindness, how can we possibly guess the impact of prostate cancer? We cannot, because the instant these things become true it no longer matters that we are the 1 in a million statistical freak.

We don't have to guess.  Because these things are known.  There has never been a case of laser eye surgery causing blindness.  There is NO evidence vasectomies increase risk of prostate cancer.  I increase my risk of prostate cancer much more through my diet than because of a vasectomy; but then, I like red meat and don't intend to stop eating it.

And as to being that statistical freak, did you check what the odds were of having a heart attack or other side effects of general anaesthesia before your dental clearance?  According to this, from the Mayo Clinic last June, the risk of death from anaesthesia is 1 in 250,000.  Pretty low risk, but you are right that if you are that 1, the odds no longer matter.

I do not see being manly as having any connection with massive sperm counts, eagle eyes, lush hair, or hollywood smiles. ... I think the whole idea of being manly, or femenine, or effete, is a bit of a laugh, we are, as inidividuals, what we are, and we all have some of those characteristics, what of it.

I agree on both counts.  Certainly, there are traits that can be ascribed to men more often than women and vice versa but it is not "unmanly" for a man to cry any more than it is "unwomanly" for a woman to enjoy hunting.

...did you actually choose of your own free will, or did you simply make a predictable selection as a result of social pressure in the anthropomorphic sense?

Well, as I said, I've not had the eye surgery thing.  Would I have still had the vasectomy?  Given the same set of parameters, I would have made the same choice.  It wasn't about advertising or "feminist lobby groups" at all.  It was about me and my wife, period.  But you are right that your question is essentially impossible to answer.  This is the world we live in.  Without all those things, maybe vasectomies wouldn't be as common, so there wouldn't be as much evidence that they are safe.

Security Theater?

Mon Feb 05 17:40:28 -0800 2007
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I agree with Bruce Schneiner about security theater, but I think the concept is associated with him, not me. - Bruce
Growing old disgracefully.
Tue Feb 06 04:09:27 -0800 2007
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NL

It's slowly coming into fashion, but leaving things "natural" has always been a biggie here, to the point that it's virtually impossible to get any kind of anaesthetic when giving birth for women, because it would "ruin the experience".

Teeth, we (humans) are quite attached to, a common dream/nightmare of a lot of people is to have your teeth fall out, teeth-pulling torture scenes are very bad to watch, to check if an animal is healthy you usually start with looking at it's teeth, there are only two types of doctors people visit regularly, Dentists for your teeth and General Practitioners for ALL the rest of your body, et cetera. Somehow teeth are inexplicably linked to our health and well-being, a lot more than the average bodypart. I think that is the reason why you got those reactions. If you would have told them you had all of your toes removed, they'd probably be less shocked.

I wouldn't know about your u/dys-topian predictions, as there are still a lot of people who explicitly do not want eye-laser-surgery, tattoos, cosmetic surgery, or any other "unnatural" tinkering with their bodies. I do think that there will be people who will want it, and that the difference will become huge, to the point that you will have naturalists and modification-addicts.

Growing old disgracefully.
Fri Feb 15 10:31:01 -0800 2008
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I needed to ask someone who's gone thru this full mouth extraction, what did you you use once you were without teeth instead of using regular toothpaste and regular mouthwash. Since I live in the US (state of Michigan) I'm sure our brand names are different so maybe you can just tell me what kinds of ingredients that, possibly you were told to look for?