The Communist Quiz

Mon Mar 12 05:15:18 -0700 2007
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The development of the Industrial proletariat is conditioned by the development of the Industrial bourgeoisie. [Editor: Long discussion follows of politics and economics as the UK emerges from monarchy.]

Proletariat is from the Latin, those who lack their own means of production and hence sell their labour to live.

Bourgeoisie is also from the Latin, a townsman, marked by a concern for material interests and respectability, and a tendency towards mediocrity.

Karl Marx and Alexis de Tocqueville were not novelists, any more than Adolf Hitler with Mein Kampf, they were writing about things they had seen and witnessed, and then, like any blogger, trying to explain it and make sense of it in terms that meant something to them.

Marx though revolution grew inside the existing incumbent society, before bursting forth and taking over, so the Proles should remain inside the existing incumbent, eating and growing, until the capitalist system had run its course, at which point the Proles could burst forth and take over.

Others thought the Proles would burst forth too early, in response to political and social pressures that were not all caused by the Proles or their existence, and this premature showing would result in either repression by the non Prole majority, or creation of a Prole regime, but one beleaguered on all sides by its own authoritarian substitutionist regime.

The problem is that not only the Proles heard about Marx, Tocqueville et al, those in power did too, and still do, so now Industrialists and Bourgeoisie have ensured that the Capitalist system cannot trigger its own demise by making sure that the Proles have a lot more to loose than their chains.

As men I chose Marx and Tocqueville because they are poles apart, one was landed gentry, and one was a political philosopher and theorist, they were worlds apart, but they talked about the same thing, but that only becomes apparent with the passage of time and reading history too. If you read just one or the other you become polarised yourself.

The Proletariat is still with us, as are the Bourgeoisie, but the incumbents have read Marx and Tocqueville too, and taken note, and adjusted the status quo so that the things they observed can't happen in quite the same way.

The English Proletariat have a lot more to lose, their homes, their cars, their plasma screens on HP, their Mastercards, and of course any organisation such as a union under whose umbrella they could withhold labour on anything other than an individual basis.

There won't be another Miners strike or General Strike, which we had in the 70's, which is the closest thing we had in *my* living memory to social and political revolution, because the incumbents were ahead of the game, nowadays a General Strike is even more unthinkable than it was then, but the problem with this is that it puts the Capitalist system on crutches.

This gives the Capitalist system artificial stability, makes it hang on in there far longer than it would have, the million plus anti Iraq war demo in London didn't faze the Bourgeoisie one iota, because there were no Proles demonstrating, only wannabe Bourgeoisie with too much to loose apart from their chains.

So, with this extra propping up, the Capitalist system will last longer than it has in the past, the wannabe Bourgeoisie have far more to lose than mere Proles, so nobody really wants to upset the apple cart.

Obviously this can go one of two main ways.

Eventually, even with the artificial supports in place, Capitalism will run its course and collapse, but because it was artificially supported long past its sell by date the collapse will be more profound than it would have been otherwise.

Or, something else will come along to supplant Capitalism and avert a collapse and revolution, what that something will be I do not pretend to know, but it will involve the current Capitalists and true Bourgeoisie hanging on to as much power and influence as possible, so it needs to be sold in such a way that nobody thinks they are one of the new Proles, better they are "stakeholders" and don't rock the boat too much.

The workers control the means of production, and the struggle of class against class is a political struggle, simply will not wash with the MySpace Nintendo HDTV generation, this is the Capitalist version of social security, free enterprise crowd control, because nobody has nothing to lose by simply withholding their labour and throwing off their chains, so there are no Proles any more.

The fact that much of what makes us non-Proles is illusory is irrelevant, facts do not matter if mass delusions and widely enough held, and reinforced at every opportunity.

Perhaps it is time for a new class of Prole, the Techo-proletariat, we do not withhold our labour from society, but we withhold our willingness to adhere to any given set of belief systems or standards.

We do not give the Bourgeoisie our belief that Retinol-A and lipids will wash our hair any better than trade detergent, we do not give our belief that a Fiat economy monetary system that we do not control will allow us to trade any better than an arbitrary system based on open source e-credits, we do not give our belief that post Marxist Capitalist Imperialism is any better than Free Trade, we do not give our belief that closed source proprietary Operating Systems are better than Open Source (same goes for codecs and Api's etc too) we do not give our belief that Bourgeoisie media conglomerates is better than the commons for controlling the Internet.

The French Revolution of 1848 and the Russian Revolution were not mere political or social events, they had their roots in emerging technology, technologies that fundamentally altered the status quo, and we are in such time again now, at the beginning of the 21st Century.

I will close with a quote from Tocqueville about the French Revolution, it speaks for itself and needs no explanation.

'In a country without monarchical traditions , in which the executive branch has always been weak and continues to be thoroughly restricted, nothing could be wiser than to entrust the choice of its representative to the nation. A president lacking the strength derived from such an origin would be the plaything of the (legislative) Assemblies, but our situation was quite different. We were emerging from a monarchy, and even the Republicans' habits were monarchical. In any case, centralization made our position unique, for it meant that the whole administration of the country, from the greatest to the most trivial matters, would be in the president's hands'

The Communist Quiz
Mon Mar 12 09:02:59 -0700 2007
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The Proletariat is still with us, as are the Bourgeoisie,

Maybe in the UK.  In the United States, we're all swiftly becoming Proletariat.  Those who were Bourgeoisie, who think they actually own something, fail to realize just how bad a mortgage is.

The Communist Quiz
Mon Mar 12 09:36:42 -0700 2007
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"The Proletariat is still with us, as are the Bourgeoisie,

Maybe in the UK. In the United States, we're all swiftly becoming Proletariat. Those who were Bourgeoisie, who think they actually own something, fail to realize just how bad a mortgage is."

That is kinda the point, a martgage means you have something to lose other than the chains when you withhold your labour, so a mortgage, car, plasma screen etc, are all ways of convincing a Prole that he is a Bourgeoisie, he has something to lose, so don't rock the boat.

Perhaps what you are really saying is that you are all realising that you are not Bourgeoise, you don't have any means of production other than your labour, and even your small businessman can be wiped out at the stroke of a legislative pen, or have his farm land reposessed by the bank or compulsorily purchased by the state, but the true Bourgeoise have made sure that you never become a true Prole, because nobody wants a revolution where a significant proportion of the population just refuse to pay tax or refuse to work for X or refuse to recognise a NEMA + New Orleans cock-up beurocracy.

The Communist Quiz
Mon Mar 12 13:26:08 -0700 2007
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What I'm saying is that almost *NOBODY* in the United States owns their own means of production, except for a few small business men in the repair trades sector (going downhill in our "made to throw away" society) and a few of the EXTREMELY rich.  Chances are you can be wiped out by one of those rich people wanting a $.25/share gain in their stock price.

And they don't care if they cause a revolution- because previous examples have shown that the National Guard is always better armed.

The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 03:38:49 -0700 2007
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The UK is much the same (though don't forget plumbers and other tradesmen who also own the tools of their own production - and are doing very well in a world where people have lost a lot of house repair skills).

I really don't think the article's use of outdated terminology helps Guy Fawkes' case - it's like trying to discus Web 2.0 in terms of databanks and magnetic memory cores.

nah, still got 'em

Mon Mar 12 09:51:22 -0700 2007
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anyone who has a mortgage or got their house by one is a Prole, paying to the Bourgies

but of course I don't buy Marx's view, there have been and are now plenty of societies when religion was the main thing (control of the mind far more important than control of material wealth, you have the first the latter is easy).  Usually more than two classes struggling too.

Our oligarchy has control of our wealth already sewn up, but that religious/philosphy/mind control they're having a rougher time with.  Now in places like Iran they have the mind business nailed down, wealth control is then easy
nah, still got 'em
Tue Mar 13 03:43:52 -0700 2007
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anyone who has a mortgage or got their house by one is a Prole, paying to the Bourgies

All well and good, except that the "Bourgies" are banks, who are owned by insurance companies and pension funds. The Bourgeoisie are no longer real people, just legal entities.
nah, still got 'em
Tue Mar 13 08:10:36 -0700 2007
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there are some real live Fat Cats behind the big corps and big banks and The New World Order builders in government, Cheney is one of them
nah, still got 'em
Tue Mar 13 12:06:56 -0700 2007
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there are some real live Fat Cats behind the big corps and big banks and The New World Order builders in government, Cheney is one of them

Are they?  Or are they mere (albeit well paid) servants of the non-material people known as corporations?  I'm not sure ANY human being involved in the game is anything more than a slave to the game.

nah, still got 'em
Tue Mar 13 12:36:39 -0700 2007
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I believe these type of folk *architected the game*, took them over four hundred years to do it (basically that 400+/- number just comes from development more or less the of modern way of stocks, banking, corporate entities, their oligarchy supplanting  government and building their wants and ways into the fabric of law, society and economy)

Fundamental Misconception

Mon Mar 12 09:33:48 -0700 2007
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capitalism exists, has gone on  and goes on under any and every form of government there ever was, from the more extreme socialism of China and the former Soviet Union, to hippie communes to middle eastern monarchies to nomads bartering.

What changes is power and who has it and how they try to maintain it, the control of thought and wealth are important secondary concerns of those who have/maintain power.    So I'll give Marx that class struggle is 66% of the issue.

Follow the power, not the money.  Capitalism isn't what's coming and going, rising and falling, that wealth business is just an important secondary concern for those having the power.

Beating the people with "The People's Stick"

Mon Mar 12 10:30:59 -0700 2007
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I'm not quite sure what the term "Proles" is meant to represent here but, that aside, I think Marx's conception of a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is not grounded in reality.  It's difficult to even discuss because I don't think Marx is entirely consistent, and who/what the "proletariat" is supposed to represent is even more vague given the changes of the past century.

In the real world, a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is not a desirable outcome if one values liberty, democracy, and social justice.  Without going in to too much detail, I think Bakunin got it right when he said:

"They maintain that only a dictatorship -- their dictatorship, of course -- can create the will of the people, while our answer to this is: No dictatorship can have any other aim but that of self-perpetuation, and it can beget only slavery in the people tolerating it; freedom can be created only by freedom, that is, by a universal rebellion on the part of the people and free organization of the toiling masses from the bottom up."

and

"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'The People's Stick'."

Bakunin's predictions were made manifest during the Russian Revolution.  See Lenin and Trotsky's repression of the Makhnovists for one example, although it's easy to find other cases (at other times and in other places around the world as well).
Beating the people with "The People's Stick"
Mon Mar 12 13:12:56 -0700 2007
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Funny you should bring up that example.  A little old lady I used to visit had met Makhno when he showed up at their little villiage in the Ukraine and was briefly a guest in her father's house.
Beating the people with "The People's Stick"
Mon Mar 12 13:30:30 -0700 2007
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In the real world, a "dictatorship of the proletariat" is not a desirable outcome if one values liberty, democracy, and social justice. 

Well, two out of three ain't bad.  Marx's definition of the proletariat is large enough to be a significant portion of any given society, so therefore by definition "dictatorship of the proletariat" is the natural outcome of democracy (better known in America among those who read the founding fathers as the dreaded "Mob rule" or "oppression of the majority").  But you're right in that nobody who values liberty for all or social justice for minorities is for it- but those are by definition anti-democratic principles.

Beating the people with "The People's Stick"
Mon Mar 12 19:22:08 -0700 2007
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Like I said before, it's difficult for me to discuss whatever the "proletariat" is/isn't, but I don't think even Marx thought they would be a significant portion of "any given society".  Russia is a good example; that country was not composed primarily of industrialized workers before the revolution. 

Likewise, I think many of the groups that historically have made progress toward democracy are not close to the demographic of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" that Marx envisioned (a weak and limited vision, in my view, that has been elevated to a semi-religious position, perhaps one that Marx himself would disagree with).  Marx had harsh words for peasants, comparing them to a useless sack of potatoes.

The libertarian tradition in the U.S. was best embodied in the farmers organized during and after the revolution here (the "majority" you mention above).  Likewise, the Makhnovists were farmers and peasants.  In the first case, and the founding fathers were pretty clear about it, there was a fear that power wasn't going to rest in the hands of the merchant class after the American Revolution.  Likewise, the self-organized peasants in Ukraine were a danger to the vision of Lenin, Trotsky, and the like.  Steps were taken to keep the majority out of decision-making in both cases, using different tactics but with surprisingly similar outcomes.

Upon further investigation, the ideology of commisars wasn't that far off than that of neo-liberals in my country.  Rather than being the grassroots sort of movement you seem to be describing above, the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is exactly what you denounce as "anti-democratic", precisely because it is rule of the many by the few.  Those who value liberty and democracy would do well to heed Bakunin's warnings during times of social upheaval, lest they find themselves on the receiving end of "the People's Stick".
Beating the people with "The People's Stick"
Tue Mar 13 07:17:50 -0700 2007
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...sorry for the use of "likewise" above so much.  I guess I need an editor...
Beating the people with "The People's Stick"
Tue Mar 13 12:30:52 -0700 2007
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Like I said before, it's difficult for me to discuss whatever the "proletariat" is/isn't, but I don't think even Marx thought they would be a significant portion of "any given society".  Russia is a good example; that country was not composed primarily of industrialized workers before the revolution. 

In a pre-industrial socity, that would be correct.  But in a post-industrial society, the proles are by far the majority, and in today's globalism/free trade society, they outnumber the other two classes by a ratio of millions to one.

Likewise, I think many of the groups that historically have made progress toward democracy are not close to the demographic of the "dictatorship of the proletariat" that Marx envisioned (a weak and limited vision, in my view, that has been elevated to a semi-religious position, perhaps one that Marx himself would disagree with).  Marx had harsh words for peasants, comparing them to a useless sack of potatoes.

Quite possibly, but this is another thing that has changed since Marx's day.  The online revolution is changing this greatly- the peasants are swiftly becoming the fourth estate, and while early experiments in electronic voting have been plauged by corruption, it's only a matter of time before we have the technical capability to build debating and voting societies that are non-representative.  At which point, rule by mob will become a possibility.

The libertarian tradition in the U.S. was best embodied in the farmers organized during and after the revolution here (the "majority" you mention above).  Likewise, the Makhnovists were farmers and peasants.  In the first case, and the founding fathers were pretty clear about it, there was a fear that power wasn't going to rest in the hands of the merchant class after the American Revolution.  Likewise, the self-organized peasants in Ukraine were a danger to the vision of Lenin, Trotsky, and the like.  Steps were taken to keep the majority out of decision-making in both cases, using different tactics but with surprisingly similar outcomes.

I'm not sure that's the "libertarian" tradition, unless libertarians are perpetuating a fraud as large as the neoconservatives and neoliberals are.  Arguably, this isn't "dictatorship of the proletariat" for the peasants (the non-merchant class or the real peasants) were kept out of the process.  Dictatorship of the proletariat means you have to make the proletariat supreme in the decision making- rule of the poor, of the lowest class, rather than the highest.  Since capitalism is arranged like a pyramid- with the few living in luxury off of the labor of the many- true democracy will become a dictatorship of the proletariat in any capitalistic nation.   Only if you subvert democracy (either by limiting power to elected representatives in the American model, or outright starvation in Stalin's Russia) can you avoid the dictatorship of the proletariat.

What you've got to remember is that Marx wasn't an original thinker.  For all of his railing against organized religion and for atheism, most of his ideas can be found in the New Testament of the Christian Bible, especially in the books written by St. Luke (The Gospel of Luke and Acts of the Apostles), and had been used rather successfully by that first communist government- the Roman Catholic Church- to survive the dark ages relatively intact and for more than a thousand years before Marx lived.  A very good example of the dictatorship of the proletariat is the post-Franciscian organization of the Church hierarchy- in which the more power you have over church property, the less you actually personally own, until you become Pope where you no longer even own your own life; but rather are a slave to the Church.

Upon further investigation, the ideology of commisars wasn't that far off than that of neo-liberals in my country.  Rather than being the grassroots sort of movement you seem to be describing above, the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is exactly what you denounce as "anti-democratic", precisely because it is rule of the many by the few.  Those who value liberty and democracy would do well to heed Bakunin's warnings during times of social upheaval, lest they find themselves on the receiving end of "the People's Stick".

The commisars were exatly the same as the neoconservatives and the neoliberals now.  All three were attempting to defraud the proletariat to the point of avoiding democracy.  Direct democracy controled by an internet forum would never result in being on the recieving end of "the People's Stick", because there would be no secrets- any bureaucrat attempting to keep a secret from the rest of society would find himself voted out of his job, and perhaps, his very life.

Beating the people with "The People's Stick"
Tue Mar 13 14:35:19 -0700 2007
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Thank you for taking the time to respond, but I'm almost out of enthusiasm for this conversation.  I try to limit my posts on Internet forums, as I think there's a fundamental problem with intellectual discussions limited to this format.  I'll respond but not to all your points, just to try to make my position more clear and perhaps clear up some confusion.

The myth of a "dictatorship of the proletariat" has proven to be the monster Bakunin described.  At best, such a hypothetical dictatorship might be seen as a temporary form of organization, one that would hand over its power eventually to the masses.  Such a conception is not grounded in reality, as I said earlier, and that's not difficult to prove unless one ignores history.  Debating whether someone is a "Prole" or a "Bourgie" or a "Techno-prole" or whatever is a waste of time, in my opinion.  Concentrating on grassroots, bottom-up forms of organization and the struggles of people trying to implement them is vastly more important and educational.  The Zapatistas are making good progress, just to name a current example.

The faults of Lenin and Trotsky cannot be passed off to Stalin (who was a mass murderer, to say the least).  From early on, it was clear that the vague vision of the middle-aged Marx and Engels, expanded upon and implemented by Lenin, Trotsky, et al., would prove nothing but disaster for the toiling masses.  There has been excellent scholarship on what happened to the Makhnovists and others trying to live freely and autonomously in and around Russia during that time period.  I've been told by so-called Trotskyists that the blame should fall on Lenin for much of this but, as in the case of passing blame to Stalin, this belief is easily dismantled; read Trotsky's reflections on the revolution, written shortly before his death, or his earlier correspondence (and orders) on the case of Makhno.

When I use the word libertarian, I'm using it in the traditional sense, not to talk about the Libertarian Party in the U.S.  When Noam Chomsky calls himself a "social libertarian", he's certainly not allying himself with a political party; rather, he's attempting to pick a phrase that reflects his values and beliefs.  Call it socialist or anarchist if you'd like, or perhaps anarcho-syndicalist.  Doesn't matter.  It's more important to focus on the example.

I know a decent amount about the political/theoretical climate Marx's ideas emerged in and, if anything, I think the impact of his theories (combined with his elevation to a god-like level) has detracted from socialism.  As far as Marx and religion is concerned, I'm certainly not an expert, and the topic is not of much interest to me.  I do know that Marx's phrase about the "opiate of the masses" has been overblown and taken out of context by later writers.  As far as I can tell, Marx was just making an observation about the function of organized religion in Western society, not denouncing religion in toto.  Although I'm certainly not religious, I see value in some of the teachings of almost all religions.  I also am aware of courageous individuals that have taught "liberation theology" amid horrific conditions, even paying the ultimate price.  I'm thinking of Archbishop Oscar Romero specifically, but there are plenty of others.

The Internet has brought a certain degree of democracy in some areas of my life and the society I'm a part of.  Technology has always had the potential to do this, but it's a struggle (as I'm sure you're aware).  I would like to see direct democracy, or a similar form, exist on the Internet but I think you're overstating the Internet's potential to positively alter other, more essential areas of life.  Communications technology will not be a cure-all, and most of the world doesn't even have it.  Most oppressed people want to be able to live healthy lives and be free in their actions and words, before high-technology is even a concern.  The Internet is being restricted more and more, and I think it is a worthy fight to reverse the trend (the FSF and others do great work).  However, visions like this seem nothing but foolish until many other problems are addressed, and many other struggles for freedom are won:

"Direct democracy controled by an internet forum would never result in being on the recieving end of "the People's Stick", because there would be no secrets- any bureaucrat attempting to keep a secret from the rest of society would find himself voted out of his job, and perhaps, his very life."

...and I'm certainly not a fan of an angry mob lynching someone, even if it is a bureaucrat.

If you're looking for direct democracy, I recommend you shed the belief that a "dictatorship of the proletariat" (or "vanguard", etc.) are the means to this end.  Such myths have done quite a bit of damage to the socialist and democratic tradition and I see no reason to believe otherwise.
The Communist Quiz
Mon Mar 12 13:44:20 -0700 2007
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The problem with Marx is that he thought that salaries would NEVER go up for workers. As he described something like
" Of cause sometimes salaries could go up, still the mean salary will always be on very low  level". You might pick Mark  Blaug's history of economic thought  and find what is wrong with his theory. When you are done you would see how wrong are you in your considerations.
The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 12:40:27 -0700 2007
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The problem with Marx is that he thought that salaries would NEVER go up for workers.

Thanks to inflation Marx is right.  Think about it.  Right now minimum wage in the United States is about to become $7.50/hr- but that $7.50/hr buys the same in the United States as $1/day does in say, Nigeria.  Salaries going up for workers is almost always a fraud- it's just a readjustment.  Of course, if you instituted a MAXIMUM wage, you'd make it so that inflation wouldn't happen, since eventually the rich would no longer be able to play the game and maintain a luxurious lifestyle, but nobody's going to do that.

Marx's description that salaries would NEVER go up for workers seems to match reality to me.  The only thing that makes it bearable is that rich countries can exploit the labor of poor countries to keep the cost of goods down and the reality hiden to a minor extent, since shipping is far cheaper than labor in the first world.

The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 12:53:27 -0700 2007
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>Salaries going up for workers is almost always a fraud- it's just a readjustment.

no. Look, at the beginning of  XIX century the living standard was at subsistence level. Now the average person could buy cars has good apartments. The growth might slow down compared with 60s still in XIX the growth was essentially lower. So it is a myth that there is no growth. There might be no essential growth in US for particular group of population still on average there is a growth.
As for world just consult for figures here http://www.theworldeconomy.org/publications/worldeconomy/

so taking a look at figures you might get sence what is the difference for the time of Marx writings and now days. So you might think of Nigeria but really even I'm living in russia I will not move there :D

>an exploit the labor of poor countries

actually they do not do that. Instead during 60s - 80s rich countries provided nearly 1 trillion ( 1000 billion ) dollars in support for development countries with bad luck thought but anyway they tried to help. The flow of goods is among rich countries and not among rich and poor.

so again take a look at modern view on Marx economic thought - it is RUBBISH. Complete and absolute

The Communist Quiz
Wed Mar 14 11:35:20 -0700 2007
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no. Look, at the beginning of  XIX century the living standard was at subsistence level. Now the average person could buy cars has good apartments. The growth might slow down compared with 60s still in XIX the growth was essentially lower. So it is a myth that there is no growth. There might be no essential growth in US for particular group of population still on average there is a growth.

The point is it is all financed on debt.  The average person back in the 19th and 18th centuries could, if he wanted to go into debt slavery, also purchase a rather luxurious lifestyle.

actually they do not do that. Instead during 60s - 80s rich countries provided nearly 1 trillion ( 1000 billion ) dollars in support for development countries with bad luck thought but anyway they tried to help. The flow of goods is among rich countries and not among rich and poor.

The proof against this is in the number of empty Chinese Cargo containers choking our ports- the flow of goods is entirely one-way.

The Communist Quiz
Wed Mar 14 12:43:40 -0700 2007
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The point is it is all financed on debt.


now your task is extremly simple to show HOW it did not happen before XIX century

The proof against this is in the number of empty Chinese Cargo containers choking our ports- the flow of goods is entirely one-way.

it might be a proof to one who never likes to think.
Now return back few years back and see - no china still usa is rich ( and as you say even better than now ).

OK what about china.
of cause it is not 'rich' ( though in big cities even wealth us citizen could find appropriately paid  job ( I just was looking for the job in china and checked some figures )  still for 20 past years it increased it's wealth many times. In few years ( ten to twenty ) china will be on par with other world. More - no other country in the world had such a good growth for last twenty years. It really matters - no country can grow indefinitely  fast. And if country grows fast - it means that it does not loose but instead it gains.
The Communist Quiz
Thu Mar 15 07:01:43 -0700 2007
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now your task is extremly simple to show HOW it did not happen before XIX century

Morality and honesty- and strict laws against usury.

And if country grows fast - it means that it does not loose but instead it gains.

Gains what, exactly?  The ability to turn thier population into a bunch of debt slaves?
The Communist Quiz
Thu Mar 15 07:16:13 -0700 2007
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Gains what, exactly?  The ability to turn thier population into a bunch of debt slaves?

 I think that debts are not common to china, rather they prefer to save then buy things
 ( the same is right for russia ) . Consumerism is not the same as capitalism and market oriented society.
(BTW again - no one force someone to get credits )

Now they live much better than before. And this is an achivement. . They did not sacrifice anything as their happiness is one of the highest in the world.
The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 04:18:06 -0700 2007
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we do not give our belief that closed source proprietary Operating Systems are better than Open Source

You do realize that that is much the same position as that of the Conservative party?

Perhaps it is time for a new class of Prole, the Techo-proletariat, we do not withhold our labour from society, but we withhold our willingness to adhere to any given set of belief systems or standards.

So our standard belief system that we will adhere to is to withhold our adherence to standard belief systems?

The workers control the means of production

Except for the robots. I suppose somebody had to programme the robots, but one that's done there's not much to do. And what about call centre workers? How much "control" do they really have? When your job can be outsourced to India almost instantly, you don't really have much control.

Capitalism will run its course and collapse

And your evidence for this is? Capitalism has been on the "verge of collapse" for over 100 years. While I think it's going to be in for challenging times as automation comes into even greater force, I don't see it disappearing overnight in a glorious revolution, I see it evolving into something different - just as it's evolved over the last few hundred years (the capitalism of today is very different from the capitalism of Marx's day).

There won't be another Miners strike or General Strike, which we had in the 70's, which is the closest thing we had in *my* living memory to social and political revolution,

The fuel protest of a few years ago were far closer to social and political revolution, as it either involved or had the sympathies of people from all walks of life.

Proletariat is from the Latin, those who lack their own means of production and hence sell their labour to live.

Bourgeoisie is also from the Latin, a townsman, marked by a concern for material interests and respectability, and a tendency towards mediocrity.


Both terms can be used to describe the majority or the population in the UK.Most people don't own the means of their own production (hell, most people in the UK don't "produce" anything) and pretty much everyone is concerned by material interests. The charge "a tendency towards mediocrity" could be levelled at most of the British population (I hate to sound harsh about the country I like living in, but there's some truth to it). It's 2007, not 1887 - you might want to update your terminology to more accurately reflect modern society.

The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 07:44:03 -0700 2007
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we do not give our belief that closed source proprietary Operating Systems are better than Open Source
You do realize that that is much the same position as that of the Conservative party?

Well, the correct title was always "The Conservative and Unionist Party"

So our standard belief system that we will adhere to is to withhold our adherence to standard belief systems?

I don't know how you get from "we withhold our willingness to adhere to any given... etc" to there...

Except for the robots. I suppose somebody had to programme the robots, but one that's done there's not much to do. And what about call centre workers? How much "control" do they really have? When your job can be outsourced to India almost instantly, you don't really have much control.

"Robot" actually means "labour" or "drudgery", Karel Capek in Rossums Universal Robots, a robot cannot withhold the means of production because it does not have free will, a call centre worker cannot withhold the means of production because their labour is not intrinsic, it is the cube farms and comms system. You make my point for me.

The fuel protest of a few years ago were far closer to social and political revolution, as it either involved or had the sympathies of people from all walks of life.

The fuel protest was significant because of its isolation, it stood out because of this, but it was not even a shadow of the winter of discontent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_discontent

Both terms can be used to describe the majority or the population in the UK.Most people don't own the means of their own production (hell, most people in the UK don't "produce" anything) and pretty much everyone is concerned by material interests. The charge "a tendency towards mediocrity" could be levelled at most of the British population (I hate to sound harsh about the country I like living in, but there's some truth to it). It's 2007, not 1887 - you might want to update your terminology to more accurately reflect modern society.

That's kinda the point, there are no proles and bourgeois as there once were, simple because there has been a concerted effort to eradicate them, and hopefully eliminate the inevitable fruiting and decay of capitalism.

We no longer have capitalism either, it too has changed in definition, yet, people don't start complaining about it being an anachronistic term, I wonder why that is...

The workers control the means of production... not any more, for two reasons.

One is technology, a checkout girl does not control the means of production at an electronic barcode point of sale till, a trained monkey can replace her, the labour element has lost all value.

The other is the thing that capitalism has become, globalisation and outsourcing, a running shoe sweat shop in the far east has a large part of the electronic checkout factor, the workers don't control the means of production, and even if they try, the company simply moves elsewhere, these things simply were not possible back then.

So I'll agree to use more modern terms and consign "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie" to history of you agree to do the same with "capitalism"

How would you describe Shell or BP or Ford or Sony without using the word "capitalism"?

More accurately, I suggest.

The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 09:48:59 -0700 2007
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Well, the correct title was always "The Conservative and Unionist Party"

Which you would have a difficult time finding on either the website or even on party membership cards - I'm not even certain that that is the name any more, and I'm also fairly certain that that was only the name of the party in Scotland.

I don't know how you get from "we withhold our willingness to adhere to any given... etc" to there...

From your article? Perhaps it is time for a new class of Prole, the Techo-proletariat, we do not withhold our labour from society, but we withhold our willingness to adhere to any given set of belief systems or standards. "We withhold our willingness to adhere to any given set of belief systems or standards" is itself part of a system of beliefs.

"Robot" actually means "labour" or "drudgery", Karel Capek in Rossums Universal Robots, a robot cannot withhold the means of production because it does not have free will, a call centre worker cannot withhold the means of production because their labour is not intrinsic, it is the cube farms and comms system. You make my point for me.

So, if call centre workers aren't part of the "proletariat", what are they? What do you mean by "intrinsic" labour?

The fuel protest was significant because of its isolation, it stood out because of this, but it was not even a shadow of the winter of discontent


Seeing as the winter of discontent has lead to almost 30 years of "conservative" government, one has to assume that the majority of the country was not really with the striking workers. With the fuel protests, the majority of the population were sympathetic to the protesters. What I find most odd about the winter of discontent was that the all the turmoil with labour unions took place under a Labour government.

We no longer have capitalism either, it too has changed in definition, yet, people don't start complaining about it being an anachronistic term, I wonder why that is...

Personally, I think corporatism is a better term for what we have, and I have heard it used in the context of modern capitalism. Maybe capitalism is still used because the term is mostly used by those who oppose "capitalism", and they are so steeped in fighting "capitalism" that they carrying on using the term. Kind of like how the Labour party still calls itself the Labour party, even though it tries to distance itself from the labour movement as much as possible.

One is technology, a checkout girl does not control the means of production at an electronic barcode point of sale till, a trained monkey can replace her, the labour element has lost all value.


But all labour is now becoming subject to technology and outsourcing, so all labour has either lost or loosing it's value. Which flies in the face of Communism, which consistently asserts the value of labour.

So I'll agree to use more modern terms and consign "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie" to history of you agree to do the same with "capitalism

How would you describe Shell or BP or Ford or Sony without using the word "capitalism"?

They are shining examples of  corporatism. A term I am more than happy to use, as it more accurately describes the state of affairs when the people who are running corporations have little, if any, direct ownership (and certainly not majority ownership) of the corporations they are running.
The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 10:45:59 -0700 2007
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The Conservative and Unionist Party has been their correct legal name since before world war 2.

Seeing as the winter of discontent has lead to almost 30 years of "conservative" government, one has to assume that the majority of the country was not really with the striking workers. With the fuel protests, the majority of the population were sympathetic to the protesters. What I find most odd about the winter of discontent was that the all the turmoil with labour unions took place under a Labour government.

Maybe you don't remember it, wages had dropped by as much as 25% in real terms over the past five years due to inflation, people started asking for more money, and the government told industry not to pay, which angered everyone, so the strikes started.

In one union alone about 5 million individual members voted to strike, the prime minister even said something about it being democracy in action, and only the media ever claimed the majority of the population were not behind it, they were, in spades.

From memory what really screwed the pooch was three things, and I could be wrong but this is what sticks in my memory.

1/ The media made a big thing about a dozen or so gravediggers "oop north" who went on strike, and all you heard or saw was banner headlines about bodies not being buried.

2/ The guvvmint tried to punish Ford or Vauxhall (or both) for agreeing an above inflation wage rise 3/ Some london councils did something that they did not have legal authority to do with regard to settling the strike, and "red ken" (now mayor of London) was involved in that too. FYI the petrol strike recently was nothing compared to the petrol strike back then, my mate was a tanker driver who was ordered out by the government (or stay on strike and go to prison) and not allowed to strike at the depot, picket there, or withold his labour, so he and the other drivers used to go to work, collect the load, and drop a slip of paper out the cab as they passed the pickets, saying where he was delivering, and they'd send flying pickets (there was a top 40 band of the name too) to the destination before he got there, and stopped the deliveries that way.

The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 10:46:28 -0700 2007
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Bugger, since before world war ONE.....
The Communist Quiz
Tue Mar 13 12:58:35 -0700 2007
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I was unaware of the Winter of Discontent- probably because I was between the ages of 5 and 10 at the time.  But thanks for the link.

In my opinion (and this is a rather novel economic theory I have in that I haven't found many who are willing to even consider the idea, let alone major economists discussing it) inflation isn't caused by changes to the minimum wage, but rather to the (realistic or legal) maximum wage.  In other words, inflation is driven by what the uppermost class can afford to pay, rather than what the lowermost class can pay.  Minimum wage causing inflation is just getting cause and effect mixed up- as historically, minimum wage increases have lagged behind maximum wage increases AND inflation.

Thus, the Winter of Discontent's Social Contract was caused by getting cause and effect mixed up- and attacking the wrong end of society in an attempt to cure it.