Why Free Software isn't Public Domain

Thu Mar 22 16:54:28 -0700 2007
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Raconteur GuyFawkes starts out discussing DRM and control of written works, and suggests that the very idea of such is bogus. But rather than arriving at Richard Stallman's idea to turn copyright on its head and require that software be kept free, GuyFawkes suggests that there would be more and bigger cooperation around Linux if Linux went public-domain. Technocrat publisher Bruce Perens asks: if that's so, wouldn't it have happened already, and tries to answer his own question.

First, GuyFawkes:

DRM = Digital Rights Management.
GPL = General Public Licence

There is a whole bunch of other stuff too, DMCA and such like, but they are all, or are all about, various forms of licensing, so what is licensing?

If I go to Ford and buy a car, I do not buy a licence to operate the car while Ford retain ownership, I own the car. There are restrictions on my use of that car, if I bought it expressly to play Death Race 2000 or GTA San Andreas in real life there are consequences, but Ford doesn't say a word. Ford does not make me sign a piece of paper absolving them from my criminal use, it (absolution) is understood to exist anyway, nor do they ask me to sign a piece of paper allowing them to repossess the car...

This doesn't mean Ford don't practice the practical equivalent, try and buy a Volkswagen crankshaft that fits a Ford, or try to perform a routine task without special tool #14327, but even so once you buy the car it is yours, to do with as you wish.

Software is not like this, nor is music, nor movies, nor anything else that can be stored, edited or created on computer, it all comes with draconian rules, and this is where the problem starts.

If I buy a copy of Microsoft Windows, in exchange for my money I am not actually getting any property, I am buying a licence that allows me to use, within specified parameters, that software.

If I buy a copy of Mepis Linux, in exchange for my money I am not actually getting any property, I am buying a licence that allows me to use, within specified parameters, that software.

At this point the Linux zealots are screaming and the screen is covered in spittle, but it is true, let me explain.

I don't own the code of Linux when I buy a copy, there is no transfer of title or deed in law (if I am given a copy and pay nothing, then in law there can be no transfer of ownership) and it is no more mine than the contents of a book that I buy.

It is true that I am free, under the Linux GPL, to do many things that I cannot do under a Windows licence, and these things include being able to examine it and disassemble it to my hearts content to see how it works, and including it in a commercial product that I sell, but this is still licensing, it is a world away from ownership, which you get from Ford.

To everyone on the planet who is not a geek or nerd, which is the vast majority of everyone, the differences between these two schemes are obscure, much like Mac vs PC zealotry, individuals do not "get" licensing, they "get" ownership.

ALL forms of licensing exist for one purpose only, as an impediment. If I was a coder I could create some software that performed function x, then I could decide to licence it under terms that prohibited you using it in your commercial product, or terms that prohibited you using it in any military application, or that prohibited you using it on a Wednesday.

This, by any other name, is Digital Rights Management.

Hollywood is in California because the bosses at the time went there to escape the licensing terms that were being forced upon them in the East, no other reason. When *they* grew to sufficient size they swapped hats and took exactly the same attitude as the Edison corporation amongst others, whose licensing schemes they went to California to escape in the first place.

This whole idea is as old as humanity, from guilds that used secret techniques to make a product to Rolls Royce locking the bonnet (hood) at the factory. Using Law and calling it Copyright or Intellectual Property or Digital Rights Management is no more than a new way of singing the same old song.

I want to impede you from doing this thing, and this retain my commercial / financial / military / political / industrial advantage over you.

This whole argument is bogus, and it goes like this.

If I am Ford, when I make a car and sell it I get paid, and if I make another car and sell it I get paid.

If I write software, when I sell it I get paid, then you can make it as easily and as cheaply as I can, so I will not get paid any more, this is unfair to me, therefore I wish to be paid for being a smartarse who had a clever idea once.

The facts are that there are thousands of man hours of labour and megawatts of energy involved in the production of every single Ford off the production line, this simply is not the case with anything that can be delivered on a CD, cost of development and cost of creation are being confused here.

So let's re-examine this business model, and take the worst case scenario, Microsoft, who are the worst case scenario because it costs them billions in development costs for a new product, and cents to create the finished product on a per item basis.

If Microsoft SOLD Windows the same way as Ford sells cars, what will it mean?

Well, I could simply copy it for free, and MS would lose all those sales and go bust in a week, or would they? Not really, because if Windows was sold, there would be a transfer of title, or ownership, and just like the Ford, ownership or title bestows all sorts of rights in Law to the owner. If I am a businessman here in the UK the minimum legal wage for one week will buy my copy of Windows, that is a very, very small price for a business, which has just purchased a capital asset, which bestows me as that business owner with full title and full rights under a broad spectrum of laws.

Could I, as an owner of that copy of Windows, simply reverse engineer it and release a better product? Yeah, if I have a few thousand coders and a few tens of million dollars to throw at it, and when I do Microsoft (or anyone else) can then take my work and improve upon it.

Will this lead to anarchy, millions of versions of windows that are all mutually incompatible? No way, history tells us we have already been there with every engineer inventing his own proprietary screw thread and fastener, as soon as cross pollination starts the whole thing settles down to a few standards, standards that may or may not evolve, but which are nonetheless easy to deal with.

Will this lead to innovation? Yes, I can practically rebuild a Ford from the wheels up without buying a single official Ford part, this hasn't hurt Ford, on the contrary, it has sustained it, and a host of symbiotic industries, many of which have created positive feedback systems that benefit Ford in many ways.

So what about Linux?

Linux is like the Ford after market industry, except no-one is making parts that fit a Ford, and there is no Volkswagen or GM, and the trouble here is all these licensing systems are no entry signs at both ends of what should be a two way street.

The after market products industry licensing prevents Ford from using any of their stuff, in fact it is worse than that, it creates a situation where Ford has to make sure none of their parts fit a Ford, and the reverse is true for the after market products industry.

Meanwhile both Ford and the after market products industry as busy blaming the other side for their licensing system being the problem, and the customer doesn't get any of it, with the result that the hot rodders build cars out of aftermarket parts, and everyone else and notably business simply buys Ford.

Bill Gates is a business genius of the first order, and if I was him I could not wish for a situation more perfectly tailor made to preserve my business hegemony that a system of two fundamentally opposed but essentially identical licensing systems.

The GPL, whatever version, is the biggest obstacle Linux faces. You cannot claim guns are evil and then hold one yourself, just for self defence, understand. It is hypocrisy. Guns or licensing, the same principle applies. We have a GOOD democracy, but the Palestinians have a BAD democracy.

Throw away ALL licensing for Linux, put the whole lot in the Public Domain, and what will happen?

Coders everywhere will start using snippets, it won't kill the beast of Redmond, but it will turn it from an overgrazing monoculture into a richer and more vital, more diverse system, and that will benefit everyone, particularly all those coders trying to work out how to make a living out of Linux.

Vast numbers of people and vast swathes of the media will be out of a gravy train, all the acronym agencies will dry up and blow away, the system as a whole, eg the coders themselves, will have a lower burden of parasites to support, as well as a more dynamic ecosystem to inhabit.

Most importantly, the Linux community could change the course of human history and social evolution at a stroke, a cure for avian flu would be disseminated widely, instead of guarded until the pandemic hits and profits are there for the taking.

Or we can hide behind our four legs good, two legs bad for of licensing and participate in a culture where knowledge and information are traded like De Beers trade diamonds, and of we go down that road we deserve everything when get when one day someone somewhere notices something and says "that's odd" and then decides not to share it, and 4 billion people die.

Bruce Perens responds:

GuyFawkes,

Certainly there has been Public Domain software for decades. There is also a sort of software licensing, called BSD, MIT, or Apache, which is as close as possible to public domain, requiring only that author attribution be preserved. And yet, neither public domain nor BSD have taken over. Indeed, the BSD operating system kernel, while technically excellent, robust and useful, is a poor cousin to Linux in terms of the size of the community working on it or the number of people using it.

So, paradoxically it might seem, people seem to prefer to have the restrictions of the GPL rather than no restrictions at all. Why?

Well, as a Free Software author myself, I feel happy to make a release under the BSD license as long as someone is paying me for the work. When nobody's paying me for the work, I do it from my own motivation to make more and better Free Software. And the best way for me to do that is to give people an incentive to share. The incentive I give them is the right to use great software, and if they are business people a time-to-market improvement over what they'd have if they had to write the software themselves. What do I get back? They share the changes that they make to my software.

Once I wrote a program called Busybox that is now in a lot of embedded devices that you can buy in the store. I worked on it for a month, and really didn't touch it again after that. Two embedded Linux companies came along, and put at least two man-years of work into my program. More people came along, and did the same. Now, the program is five times as functional as it was when I finished with it.

If I had not used the GPL, those embedded Linux companies would have kept extensions to my original work proprietary, as a means of competing with each other. I would not have gotten that "multiplier effect". The world would not have as much great Free Software as it does today.

If I wrote BSD or Public Domain software without being paid for it, and some company made a proprietary version and didn't share their code as I shared mine, I'd feel like some taken-advantage-of unpaid employee, and I'd not have much motivation to release my code. When I can enforce share-and-share alike terms, my motiation is preserved. And I think that's why most Open Source projects choose the GPL.

Why Free Software isn't Public Domain
Thu Mar 22 17:48:35 -0700 2007
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Maybe I'm being obtuse, but how is this different from making it BSD-licensed?  Microsoft, and others, can take from BSD as they wish, without giving anything back.  The idea being that they then improve their product with the superior BSD code.

The distinction between BSD and PD is a small, and as far as I can see, insignificant one in this example.

Vast numbers of coders are already using GPL-licensed code.  It is being adopted for the simple reasons that it is very convenient.  Damn near every project I've done in the last five years as started out with "okay, what already exists that I can start from".  I've yet to run into a case where there is no FOSS software -- usually GPL -- that I can use.

No, the GPL is why GNU/Linux is so prevalent and BSD is a niche-player.  The GPL, along with web services, is what is going to force the eventual death of Windows.
Why Free Software isn't Public Domain
Thu Mar 22 18:29:50 -0700 2007
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The distinction between BSD and PD is a small, and as far as I can see, insignificant one in this example.

That's right.

Bruce

Why Free Software isn't Public Domain
Thu Mar 22 18:50:55 -0700 2007
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Throw away ALL licensing for Linux, put the whole lot in the Public Domain, and what will happen? Coders everywhere will start using snippets, it won't kill the beast of Redmond, but it will turn it from an overgrazing monoculture into a richer and more vital, more diverse system, and that will benefit everyone, particularly all those coders trying to work out how to make a living out of Linux.

People can pretty much do that already. You can use GPL software in a proprietary system, by e.g. keeping it as a separate module. There are for instance a lot of commercial products that use Ghostscript to make or manipulate PDF files. If you look at the installed files, you find a complete GhostScript, including the licensing files. The average user never is aware of that though.

Why Free Software isn't Public Domain
Thu Mar 22 21:51:09 -0700 2007
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So Guy Fawkes* would rather his country dismantled their defence force because they shouldn't start wars? I don't see the hypocrisy in self-defense. Look at it this way: GPL is like saying guns (copyrights) are evil, then building a special gun that only destroys guns, not people. PD/BSD is as if the government gave you a gun, but you said "guns are evil" and gave it to someone else without so much as a background check! Which one is hypocritical?

When you release your software as PD/BSD, you give ammunition to your proprietary competitors. They can use _your_ code to take away mindshare, marketshare and developer effort from your Free version/community. Why would you shoot yourself in the foot like that? The problem, as GF said, is parasites. They don't exist in the GPL world, because their veins are open to everyone else. Only with PD/BSD can the parasites take without giving.

The only diversity PD/BSD encourages is a diversity of licenses. And every one of them evil by definition, right? More to the point, that diversity splinters the community. The GPL creates a microcosm in which the rules are effectively the same as if copyright did not apply. It is by showing how much better things work in this microcosm that we can bring about the social evolution we desire - towards complete freedom of information.

* OK, maybe his country does start wars, but this is assuming they don't.

Freedom preservation requires limits on freedom

Thu Mar 22 22:33:02 -0700 2007
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The GNU project has long discussed why GNU software is not in the public domain. The GNU manifesto, a July 1986 interview with Stallman in Byte magazine, and their commentary on the public domain have been online for a long time and all (in varying levels of detail) explain why forgoing copyright power isn't in the best interests of those who want to preserve software freedom. Preserving software freedom requires preventing others from using their power to take away others' freedom (by releasing non-free derivatives of free software). Hence, the copyleft of the GPL.

FSF reps give talks from time to time and explain the logic of this with an analogy to driving which I'll try to paraphrase. Your freedom to drive wherever you want conflicts with a pedestrian's freedom to walk down the street safely. Since pedestrians are favored, there are restrictions to where drivers can drive (only on the streets), their speed, and so on. You can't have all freedoms all the time because there are conflicts. You have to decide what to favor and restrict accordingly. For the FSF, author of the GPLs, favoring freedom is critical.

Why Free Software isn't Public Domain
Fri Mar 23 03:47:52 -0700 2007
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Following up to myself to respond to Bruce and others.

Bruce says there is a non GPL alternative, and cites as examples Apache and BSD, and then says these are poor cousins to Linux. Really? Bought a Mac lately? Visited a website lately? The size of the active community is one metric, but is it the right one?

Mac was the homeworld or proprietary systems, now look at them.

Bruce is happy to release something under BSD as long as he is paid, which is fair enough, so in the interests of ongoing future revenue, where would you rather have your code? In a wiped beige box running some flavour of linux, or on a Mac, in a business environment?

Charles says the GPL is the reason linux is such an active community and BSD is dead in the water as a niche player, I don't think Mac is a niche player, it is the second biggest kid on the block, after MS.

Procrastinator says GPL creates an environment with no parasites and a flat playing field, and mentions defence forces and starting wars. GPL is infested with parasites, GPL is *constantly* in the news via SCO or Novell or something, BSD is the one immune to parasites, MS never even denied the source of their TCP/IP stack, instead people were squabbling about licences when they could have been scoring major goals. As far as defence forces go, look at Switzerland, no standing army to speak of so no ability to invade anyone, except by accident in which case they ring up and apologise and it is all done and dusted, but at nightmare to invade.

The defence against a gun is not another gun that will target the first gun, the defence against a gun is to become ubiquitous and permeable, you can shoot the english channel all day long and do it no harm, while expending your resources.

JB Nicholson says the FSF are always banging on about this, my ability to drive anywhere I want conflicts with the pedestrians freedom to walk down the street safely, this is a bogus argument. My Ford, which I do not licence but own title to, can coexist quite happily with pedestrians bodies, which they do not licence but as free citizens own title to, I don't drive on the pavements and they don't jaywalk on the roads, because we are both owners, which we get, and have a duty of care to other owners, which we get, or we find ourselves in front of another authority, not Ford, or an arm of Ford, not God, or an arm of god, a road traffic accident involving my car and a pedestrian does not wind up with a church representing the pedestrian and a Ford subsidised transport think tank representing me and then we all duke it out somewhere in a kangaroo court dressed up to imitate due legal process.

Bruce closes by saying "If I wrote BSD or Public Domain software without being paid for it, and some company made a proprietary version and didn't share their code as I shared mine, I'd feel like some taken-advantage-of unpaid employee, and I'd not have much motivation to release my code. When I can enforce share-and-share alike terms, my motivation is preserved. And I think that's why most Open Source projects choose the GPL"

This is programming at it's most fundamental, programming of the human being, how many of you have recently read the letters between Bill Gates and the hone brew computer club, the place where this whole licensing mess started? I have scans of the originals if anyone wants them.

You have been programmed to see two scenarios, scenario A is Bruce writes some code and releases it under BSD, scenario B is Bruce writes the same code and releases it under GPL.

The argument goes that scenario B prevents anyone else getting a free ride on the fruits of Bruce's labour, therefore scenario B must be optimal.

This is "game theory" at its very worst, and let me remind you that "systems analysis" grew _directly_ out of game theory as applied to mutually assured destruction, megadeaths and the idea that there could be a winning play in a global nuclear conflict.

It is this game theory that says I can take Bruces BSD code and use it in my idea to make a fortune, and Bruce can go whistle.

People aren't like that, the prisoners dilemma spectacularly failed when tested AT the Rand Corporation on real people.

But the fundamental flaw is in the basic assumptions about scenario A and scenario B above, neither scenario implies any minimum level of benefit for Bruce, and scenario B of necessity assumes that if you bend over someone will ram it up you, this is not the case.

The Free Software Foundation and the GPL is a bigger energy drain than any distro you care to name, but they produce absolutely nothing of value.

Licensing keeps honest people honest, that's all, Bruce's GPL doesn't stop someone reverse engineering his work to make something that does the same job that he never hears about or gets credit for

THE REAL POINT HERE....

Outside of the proportionally speaking, minute open source community (proportion of total population) 99% of the time you LITERALLY cannot even give Linux away for free, even though it is, for significant numbers of people, a significantly superior solution across the board than windows.

The reason you cannot give it away is not because it is crap, it is because of all the licensing crap, the first thing everyone learns about Linux is it has this licensing which is incompatible / different to Windows, and that is where they stop.

Nobody wants to know why, or who, or how or where or what, because the message is out there, MS (and others such as Oracle) spread thus FUD at every opportunity, and the FSF oblige and rise to the bait at every opportunity.

About a year ago I dipped my toes back in the local Linux User Group, two guys turned up with a problem in their business that needed a solution, I could see that LAMP was a very viable solution, so the LUG promptly berates them with RMS is god, GNU is not unix recursive acronyms, hurd microkernels, and generally looking like none of them ever got laid.

The two guys left, now you will never convince them of any reality except MS Windows and compatible software is a basic part of the costs of doing business, like light and heat, and if it makes a particular venture non viable or vastly expensive for the end customer that is just accounting / too bad.

This example is EXACTLY what all the SCO / Novell / FSF / everything RMS says actually sounds like to everyone who is not already a convert.

GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!

Fri Mar 23 05:28:29 -0700 2007
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> The reason you cannot give it away is not because it is crap, it is because of all the
> licensing crap, the first thing everyone learns about Linux is it has this licensing
> which is incompatible / different to Windows, and that is where they stop.

Are you saying that the reason *most* people don't use Linux is because of *licensing* issues?  Because socially inept nerds rambling on about licensing issues annoys them?

Most people don't give a damn about licensing issues.  They click thru whatever shrink-wrap license pops up on the screen without so much as a second thought.

The reason 99% of the time you can't give an operating system away for free is because if you tried to, most people would say "what's an operating system?"  The remaining fraction who knew what the hell you were talking about would think "most software runs on Windows so that's what I need to use."  Except for a few weirdos (you and me and the other Technocrats) who know why Mac or Linux is better.

But you are right, Linux could be public domain and nearly everyone who mattered would still use and develop Linux.  Occasionally there would be "thefts" of the public domain code (I say theft to mean developers who benefit from the code without giving back) but those thefts probably already occur under the GPL without anyone being the wiser.  (How can you prove your GPL code has been stolen? Not easily if the thief had half a brain.) A theft in this context would have the same effect as a code fork.  Code forks are generally ignored by the free software community because they are harmless.

But you are wrong, GPL is the same as public domain for your purposes.  I can take Linux right now and modify it however I like and release it to the world under the name Shawnix.  All the GPL says is that I must include my modified source code in all releases.  Big deal.  That's the only practical difference between the GPL and the public domain.  I don't think you will seriously try to argue that the tiny requirement for developers to include source code with their software releases is preventing your robust software ecosystem from evolving.

It's easier to talk the average developer into releasing his code for free under the GPL than into the public domain, because the average developer doesn't understand that it doesn't (usually) matter.  That's the main reason Linux has a better community than BSD.  The other reason is that Linux has a name which happens to guarantee a benevolent dictatorship model of development.  (Linus Torvalds is guaranteed to be the main boss for as long as he wants to be.)
GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!
Fri Mar 23 05:54:13 -0700 2007
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One the one hand you are saying the differences between PD and GPL are miniscule, yet the facts are that world + dog are constantly bickering about what the GPL is, GPL vs DRM, GPL vs closed source, you name it.

The FACTS are that the most notable thing about the GPL is everyone is arguing about it, from SCO / Novell on down, it has already got a bad name as far as the world + dog is concerned, whether that bad name is justified is irellevant.

The Open Source community may well be world class when it comes to coding, but Robert Mugabe could give them lessons about PR, and PR is the very first battle that you must always win.

This is a HUGELY SIGNIFICANT POINT, why is NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, holding up Apple an as example, they dumped proprietary hardware formats and rebuilt the OS based not that loosely on BSD nix, and they are a MAJOR success story as a result.

Re licencing issues, you say "most people" click thru them, no reading, they do it because they DO NOT WANT TO KNOW, because most people consider that they have BOUGHT the product, so that is how they act.

But again, you miss the point, MS is God because MS first and foremost always courted business, and business doesn't think like "most people".

When I say you literally cannot give away Linux in 99.9 percent of cases I mean literally that, and that is what my linux advocacy has been for years, give away working systems, not just a live CD, I'll install and configure it for you the way you want, and you STILL can't give it away.

This is a FUNDAMENTAL issue that NOBODY wants to address, and until the community does we are pissing into the wind.

GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!
Fri Mar 23 06:49:58 -0700 2007
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is the use of GNU/Linux increasing or decreasing?

is the adoption of GNU/Linux by governments of entire countries on the rise or decline?

Some people might be complaining about the GPL, but doesn't seem to be keeping some of the largest cities and corporations here in the U.S. from migrating from Unix(tm) to GNU/Linux.  Who is "everyone and their dog"?  Maybe people who've written a bit of clever code that depends/links into GPL code, and would like to get some royalties but GPL won't let them?

edit - additional thoughts:  I've given GNU/Linux away, as in installed it on laptops and desktops and people still using it.  Most people aren't coders, the GPL doesn't mean anything, but functionality does, having a huge pool of software to run does, free as in beer/lunch does, not having to call Microsoft to get permission to change machines or reinstall or put on more machines or give to friend does
GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!
Fri Mar 23 07:56:00 -0700 2007
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> The FACTS are that the most notable thing about the GPL is everyone is arguing about it,
> from SCO / Novell on down, it has already got a bad name as far as the world + dog is
> concerned, whether that bad name is justified is irellevant. The Open Source community
> may well be world class when it comes to coding, but Robert Mugabe could give them
> lessons about PR, and PR is the very first battle that you must always win.
> This is a HUGELY SIGNIFICANT POINT


I can't agree with your point enough.

I think the reason for the bad Linux PR is polish, not licensing.  Most people don't know or care what licensing means.  But when they try to print a PDF file and nothing happens, even though they know their printer works because they can print regular web pages, that's when Linux leaves a bad taste in their mouth. I'm going thru that exact printing problem right now, but I'm savvy enough to reboot into Windows for PDFs until I figure out what is wrong with Linux.  Most people aren't that savvy or that patient, so they give up, and Linux gets a negative reputation as being "hard to use".

So what if the Linux kernel is 2.71722% more efficient at context switching?  (Or at whatever.)  In Windows, when I'm looking at a PDF and I click on the little printer icon, a copy of the PDF comes out of my printer.  In Linux, nothing happens.  Nothing happens = less than 1% desktop market share.  But Linux has been working on the polish issues in recent years and has been growing in popularity as a result.  License changes aren't what we need.  We need the nerds to stop comparing the sizes of their floppy drives and start writing software that works out-of-the-box.

 

 
GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!
Sun Mar 25 23:57:09 -0700 2007
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I haven't used Windows in a while (since Windows 98), but when I did, I had more "pull my hair out" moments than I have with GNU/Linux now. Windows has probably improved since then just as GNU/Linux has, but my point is that people put up with an incredible amount of that sort of thing from Windows without switching to Mac. There has to be more to it than that.
GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!
Fri Mar 23 08:36:57 -0700 2007
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Almost...

As you state, the problem is perception and PR but NOT the license.  I can give you several reasons why the GPL is preferable to anything Microsoft has.  Ever hear of a raid by the BSA because of GPL (or PD or BSD) licenses?

How about the costs involved -- real, documented costs -- with maintaining the licensing and proof of licensing.  A BSA audit and trying to keep tract of 2,500+ Windows, Windows UPGRADES and associated software licenses helped me switch a bunch of systems at a Fortune 1000 company from Windows to Linux.

* * *

Apple and Mac are NOT and example of BSD.  They leeched like the parasites they are.  Go check out Open Darwin for an example.  Hint -- the project is dead and buried.  What makes OS X what it is isn't BSD code, it is the proprietary bits on top of that.

Yes, the BSD improved the whole, but the whole is closed and encumbered.  And yes, they're a niche player.  They're in a self-imposed niche
GPL vs BSD vs public domain doesn't matter!
Fri Mar 23 09:40:24 -0700 2007
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"When I say you literally cannot give away Linux in 99.9 percent of cases I mean literally that, and that is what my linux advocacy has been for years, give away working systems, not just a live CD, I'll install and configure it for you the way you want, and you STILL can't give it away."

You could have fooled me. People have been paying me to install and configure boxes for years now. Business people at that.

Wanna do lunch on the fifth of November? Have your people call my people...

all the best,

drew
Why Free Software isn't Public Domain
Fri Mar 23 05:42:11 -0700 2007
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Mac was the homeworld or proprietary systems, now look at them.

They're still proprietary whenever they think it suits them. All the bits that make OS/X OS/X are still proprietary.

Charles says the GPL is the reason linux is such an active community and BSD is dead in the water as a niche player, I don't think Mac is a niche player, it is the second biggest kid on the block, after MS.

Because Linux was GPL'd, a lot of the people who were waiting for the GNU HURD jumped aboard - while there are no hard numbers, some of them would have been attracted to Linux because of the GPL. However, BSD was in legal turmoil at the time, so it's hard to determine how many people were just waiting for a free, "legal" *nix and didn't care about the differences between the GPL and the BSD licence and how many wanted a free, legal and GPL'd *nix.

Also, the Mac is not that much more representative of the BSD community than Microsoft, with their use of BSD components in the past. While Apple have certainly given back, there has been some disappointent at the amount given back.

BSD is the one immune to parasites


No it's not - AT&T tried to do to BSD what SCO is trying to do with Linux.


It is this game theory that says I can take Bruces BSD code and use it in my idea to make a fortune, and Bruce can go whistle.

People aren't like that, the prisoners dilemma spectacularly failed when tested AT the Rand Corporation on real people.

Corporations are not people. A corporation will be far more willing to screw over people than most of the individuals who work in that corporation would be.

I could see that LAMP was a very viable solution, so the LUG promptly berates them with RMS is god, GNU is not unix recursive acronyms, hurd microkernels, and generally looking like none of them ever got laid.


And that has something to do with the GPL how? RMS/FSF/GPL fanboys are a problem, but it's not because of the licence. If we lived in a world where the BSD licence was GPL like and the GPL was BSD like, we would still have RMS/FSF/GPL fanboys turning people off (though this time while saying that BSD code was too restrictive).

Apple isn't a good example any longer

Fri Mar 23 13:07:10 -0700 2007
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GuyFawkes,

When Apple went to the x86 platform, they stopped making releases of the OpenDarwin platform. They left the community in the lurch, and took all of their work private. That's just what a community person doesn't want, they feel really taken advantage of when it happens.

GPL would not have allowed it.

Bruce

in the long run, license choice doesn't matter

Mon Mar 26 05:37:45 -0700 2007
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> GPL would not have allowed it.

Agree with you completely but wanted to mention that in the long run, license choice doesn't matter.

Apple's choice to go proprietary with OS/X is equivalent to a free software project that forks off a second free version, leaving one "mainstream" version popular with developers (BSD) and one fork unpopular with developers (OS/X).  OS/X is "unpopular" with developers in the sense that only paid Apple employees can work on OS/X.

Code forks are generally ignored and for good reason.  BSD can apply huge development resources to improve mainline BSD, far more resources than Apple will ever be able to afford.  Eventually any features people care about from OS/X will be duplicated in mainstream BSD, and then Apple will be trying to sell an OS that is already available as a free download.  Fortunantly for Apple they are a hardware company not an OS company, but at that time they will realize, they might as well free their source code.

But Linux will beat them both, because Linux has more developers than BSD and OS/X put together.  Linux would probably win even if they passed a law today making Linux public domain.  The GPL helps make it easier for us to win certain battles, but the free software community is stronger than the proprietary community, even without resorting to legal tools.  The GPL also makes it easier to recruit developers, who can be told their code will be "safe" from being stolen by the proprietary camp, but that's more a PR issue than a real issue.

The free software community is it's own best weapon.  Having the GPL is nice but is not critical.

I don't understand the counterargument, but you seem to be affirming my take on the FSF's point

Fri Mar 23 15:52:43 -0700 2007
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I'm not sure what your counterargument is, but you seem to be affirming my paraphrase of the FSF's point (important to note that I could be misstating their views).  The FSF driving explanation had nothing to do with licensing or who represents whom in an accident, it has to do with recognizing and resolving conflicting freedoms, no further.  

The developer community is more important than the license

Fri Mar 23 09:04:48 -0700 2007
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I honestly don't think it makes much difference in most cases. And where it does matter, there's no clear winner. For well-established open source projects, it's the community and not the license that determines success. Linux succeeded where BSD failed because Linux ran on more machines. But BSD is no failure; everyone, from GNU to Microsoft, has borrowed from it. And it continues to get improvements from the various niches where it has traction-- just like Linux. When you have an active developer base, proprietary extensions are often not worth the effort because you have to keep back-porting them to keep up with new features.

Bruce brings up the example of BusyBox, which was essentially abandonware but a community has been created because of the GPL license. Others have mentioned Apple. What Apple adds to BSD is linux's loss, also because of the GPL license. If Linux were LGPL, Apple could borrow from it and do essentially the same things it's doing now: improve BSD and give the changes back, but build proprietary features around it. Others do the same with Linux, most notably Tivo and cell phone manufacturers.

I haven't heard discussion of dual licensing, but that's an interesting case. Sun seems especially interested in GPL 3, and I suspect it's so that they can maximize lock-in. If you want proprietary features, you can still license Java from Sun. This gives Sun all the advantages of open source, but mantains a proprietary business.

So generally speaking, if there is no community, GPL requires the creation of one. But it can also exclude participation because of the same restrictions. Point being that the social contract has proven to be at least as important as the legal one.