Technocrat

Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?

zogger
Sat Apr 14 20:09:54 -0700 2007
Environment.
manage

The UK Independent is referencing a German study saying there could be a connection between cellphones and this recent dramatic increase in that Colony Collapse Disease that is plaguing beekeepers and threatens large segments of the agricultural industry. [Editor: Questionable science alert - see replies].

ed:sorry, I looked for the referencing actual study and couldn't find anything recent at the Landau university site, at the professor's page (I used the google translator service on that one). Some older studies are there, but none recent, so I don't know which they are referring to.

.."Now a limited study at Landau University has found that bees refuse to return to their hives when mobile phones are placed nearby. Dr Jochen Kuhn, who carried it out, said this could provide a "hint" to a possible cause."..more at the article link

ed2: for this cellphone radio frequency deal to be real, seems like there would have had to been something unusual that has happened with cell/mobile phones recently, or perhaps maybe just a threshold of radiation was reached? Anyone more knowledgable in this subject aware of anything "new" that has been introduced lately in the biz? I can't think of another reason why it should occur all of a sudden like is happening now. I think they should focus on why abandoned hives also don't get invaded by parasites, both to find out why this is happening, and also to look for some silver lining blowback, some way to use this phenomena in pest control perhaps, an effective deterrent is an effective deterrent. This CCD is rather an alarming occurrence though, honeybees are *incedibly* important for just a ton of food and for a lot of basic plantlife. I'd put honeybees at near the top of the list of important domesticated animals for that matter.

Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
SECProto
Sat Apr 14 21:09:11 -0700 2007
 manage
Is the rate of colony collapse disease or whatever different in different countries? that could be an indication of whether this might be the cause or not. In the UK, cellphones are used more, or at least more density-wise, than in say, agricultural areas of the US. so if the rates of this disease are significantly lower in the US than in the UK, this cause could be quite probable.

agreed on the importance of honeybees, though.
Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
Simon
Sun Apr 15 02:41:09 -0700 2007
 manage
Colony Collapse disorder is reportedly worse in agricultural America than in the UK. Indeed the UK bee keepers aren't sure it is even here.

A Google shows someone suggesting that GWEN is the issue. But what little I could find suggests that it is being phased out, and would only affect America.

The Landau paper is probably the DECT phone one, where they appear to have put the base station in the hive, which I could imagine upsetting the bees somewhat. But hey I don't keep bees, or read German well enough.

http://agbi.uni-landau.de/material_download/elmagexp_bienen_06.pdf

I think people like to blame mobile phones for all sorts of things. Although the BBC is happy to blame the "Internet" still, as a new and scary thing, even thought it's major UK debut (JANET switching) was about 20 years ago. If you don't understand it, it is still "new and scary", works for me, I find Haskell very scary.
Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
Charles E Hill
Sun Apr 15 00:18:05 -0700 2007
 manage
I'm a contractor for Alcatel-Lucent, the largest telecom equipment manufacturer.  Among other things, I deal with cellular systems.  Specifically, ATM and Frame Relay backhauls from cell towers and things like hand-off, routing, etc.

Nothing jumps out at me for being "oh my gosh, new" in the last year.

Here is a chart of the frequencies used globally for the mobile telephone system.  Add to that the widespread use of 900 MHz, 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz for unlicensed, low-power wireless transmissions.  This covers Bluetooth, WiFi A/B/G/N, Motorola Radios, GPRS/FRS radios, and just about anything you don't need an FCC (or non-U.S. equivalent) license for, like Ham Radio.

While the global amount of radio transmission in those frequencies has risen dramatically over the last decade, there are certain areas that were already pretty saturated.  If these transmissions were causing the problems with bees, then there should be a distinct pattern that can be matched to signal density.  It should also be testable and repeatable.

Bees use sun angle and polarized light as their primary mechanism for navigation.  They do, however, also rely heavily on the Earth's magnetic field to act as a compass.  Studies on this subject resulted in the 1973 Nobel Prize for Karl von Frisch.

The Earth's magnetic field moves over time.  Several times in the past it has flipped orientation totally.  Currently, the rate of change is higher over the last 300 years than it has been for any time in the past 5,000 years.  Some suggest that we're looking at a possible flip in the near future, but the impending signs would be hard to discern.  We are long overdue.

Are the bees one such sign?

* * *

I should shop this as a screenplay in Hollywood.  Sort of like The Day After Tomorrow, except with a magnetic flip as opposed to an instant Ice Age.  I could get Sean Connery to play the cranky scientist who raves about the bees and their magnetic sense.  :-)

Or, maybe a gov't grant to do a study.  I can see getting paid to study bees...
Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
GuyFawkes
Sun Apr 15 03:26:37 -0700 2007
 manage
or high sunspot activity / high solar flux / flipping the pole rotor/armature style.

puzzler

zogger
Sun Apr 15 08:09:38 -0700 2007
 manage
The sun thing and or our poles shifting would show up with bees all over the world you might think.

I dunno on this, I am tending to think it might be some new GM crop introduced locally where the bees can get to the pollen. Pollen and nectar are the ties with bees all over. Some areas are experiencing the collapse, others aren't. That should be clearcut enough for the biggest clue on where and how to look. All worker bees do mostly is go look for pollen and nectar. Or perhaps a new brand of pesticide or herbicide, I'd guess more pesticide as they are usually some form of nerve poison and targeted at insects. It doesn't have to be food crops either, lawns get sprayed a lot, and bees will work clover in lawns if it is there, along with homeowner shrubs, etc. Either way, I think it's either sprays or some new GM crops that have some bug resistant gene inserted.

kant spel either, I meant *incredibly* useful, heh, just noticed it

Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
maethorechannen
Sun Apr 15 04:41:11 -0700 2007
 manage
I looked for the referencing actual study and couldn't find anything recent at the Landau university site

I really think the media should start providing reference links to source material, not just for science articles but for any article that references some study and where that study is available online (like a lot of government output).
Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
AB3A
Sun Apr 15 06:50:11 -0700 2007
 manage
People have been suspecting RF radiation for all sorts of maladies since the dawn of radio.  And every time it has been suspected, the causes have been later dismissed. 

We can correlate all sorts of things with Colony Collapse Disease.  If the money is there, then by all means pursue this.  However, I can't help thinking this is a blind alley.  I can think of many more likely things than this. 

Besides, the modern PCS phones use less power than what was in use during the 1980s. 

I live near one of the most RF dense cities in the world: Washington DC.  If this theory had any basis in fact, CCD ought to be rampant here.  Pardon my skepticism, but people have been scared of radio waves since there was radio.  I can't help thinking this is more of the same.

Questionable science

Bruce Perens
Sun Apr 15 22:21:08 -0700 2007
 manage
What I absolutely hate is a study where a handset or a DECT base station is located near a beehive rather than a calibrated RF emitter. RF is something that can be created and measured as precisely as sound. It's much easier to make than light: to make variable frequency light precisely, you would need a synchrotron. So, when I read about a study with a consumer device located near a beehive, that doesn't tell me much about the RF. Cell phones use different power and frequencies depending on the local cell towers and the traffic on channels from one moment to the next.

These frequencies have been used for television for 50 years now. Indeed, many cellular systems operate within or between current or retired television channel allocations. But the TV stations had effective radiated power (power * antenna gain over isotropic) in the gigawatts, while cell towers generally would only have a few KW ERP.

News like this sends people running to their legislator befrore there is the slightest proof that it's true.

We now have laws on the books that prohibit use of cell telephones while gassing up your car, dispite the fact that the only reported incidents turned out to be internet spoofs. This one could hurt a lot worse.

Bruce
Questionable science
rubycodez
Mon Apr 16 14:29:54 -0700 2007
 manage
well, UHF tv (800 Mhz and thereabouts) is only in the lowest range used for cell, but I would point to microwave relay links and the huge radar installations as evidence GHz comm doesn't seem to bother the bees much.  Bugs including bees don't flee when I talk on cell phone in garden or use wireless on patio (humorous there are people nowadays so very removed from outdoors they would even consider the possibility)

I can amplitude modulate light even more easily than you can frequency or phase modulate RF;  been done for centuries for signaling.  I could even do some FM light signaling by rotating a prism, "green to violet if by land, green to red if by sea.."   I haven't figured out low-tech PM or AM SSB for light yet though...8D
Questionable science
HiTekVagabond
Tue Apr 24 08:21:26 -0700 2007
 manage
Cell towers have actually gone down in power as cell sizes have shrunk in the last 24 years.  The beauty of cellular is that you can re-use the frequencies.  Capacity of the system is increased by lowering the power which shrinks the cell sizes and installing more, lower power cells.  Cell towers don't use KW ERP- maybe in the hundreds at most.   It's the television towers that have to cover an entire metro area from one tower - their ERP is in the millions.  And, yes, cellular is in what used to be the upper end of UHF television channels 70-83.  As with any form of light, its intensity decreases sharply with the inverse square of the distance.

I just don't see why anyone would put a cordless base station inside of their bee hive.  And, yes I agree with you.  How can you conduct a scientific experiment when your RF source is not calibrated?
Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
ColonyCollapse.org
Tue Apr 24 04:53:52 -0700 2007
 manage
The researchers who carried out this study have no spoken out and said that their data was wildly misinterpreted and shows *no link between cellphones at CCD*. See:

http://colonycollapse.org/content/view/23/33/
Bee colony collapse-Cellphone link?
HiTekVagabond
Tue Apr 24 08:10:19 -0700 2007
 manage
The Independent story was a hoax.  See the Wikipedia article on Colony Collapse Disorder to see that the Landau University was about cordless phones and the learning behavior of bees.  The Independent misquoted them and linked their observations to CCD.   No such link was found by the researchers.
 

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