It is USA centric, but one that anyone anywhere on the planet who
goes online runs into quite regularly.
My parents were expatriate workers, and I spent much of my life
working abroad, so now, living here in the south west of the UK,
the boot is on the other foot. The EU has freedom of movement and
freedom of employment, and if I go into town now I see cars with
number plates from Poland, Lithuania, and just about everywhere
else.
Two days ago I took some old fencing wood and other junk down to
the recycling centre, the workers in hi-vis vests were calling to
each other in Polish, my missus was a cleaner at a local motel,
and a dozen or more of the cleaning staff of 15 are now Polish,
the girl works as receptionist at the only 4 star hotel in town,
and now has a Polish colleague.
These people have as much legal right to be here as anyone, that
is enshrined in EU law, and it needs to be said that since
coloureds down here are very rare anyway, less than a tenth of a
percent of the population, there is plenty of the old fashioned
sort of prejudice where blacks are associated with problems in
our big cities, so the Poles et al being white are less commented
on than if we re-instated a 1950's policy of immigration from
the West Indies.
However you don't have to go very far to find someone who
will talk to you about the negative affect this influx of Poles
is having on the local job market and wages. "Kay won't
employ locals anymore, she only wants Polish workers" was
one comment I heard two days ago, and it is largely borne out in
fact.
There is an element of Polish workers being attractive because
they don't know shit about the minimum wage, working
conditions, workers rights, health and safety, the taxation
system, and there is an element of Polish workers coming from a
poorer economy so their lower bar of entry to what they consider
an acceptable job and wage is a lot lower than ours, but at the
end of the day it is the employer who chooses whom to employ, and
nobody is addressing that dirty little fact.
Consider it as an analogy to dating, there is the dating where
you go out and look for someone to fall in love with, marry,
raise kids and spend the rest of your life with, and there is the
dating where all you are interested in is the sex, and none of
that nonsense about spending time and money on meals, flowers,
cinemas and chocolate when you could be getting down to the beast
with two backs.
The "job for life" or career path is the former, and
the actual job market today is the latter. Employers are sluts
into easy sex, that is the bottom line. Employers are most
definitely not into looking for decades long relationships with
employees, relationships like that involve give and take,
compromise, negotiation, effort, money, whereas the easy sex only
requires consenting adults, and there is no shortage of them.
There are two factors that promote the job for life trait in an
employer, one is a limited gene pool to pick from, and the other
is an environment in which it is easy to sustain a relationship,
so that would be limited scope labour pool and economic boom
times with no cloud on the horizon.
Fact is neither one of these factors in present today in the UK,
thanks to the EU labour is available for any job you care to
create, pretty much on your terms, and fact is no company is
assured of next years turnover, so employers behave like sluts.
The USA is a bit different, the labour market is more limited,
mainly due to geographic factors, USA is big and spread out, and
there are oceans on two sides, 4 guys in a crappy old car
can't drive in to where the work is in 48 hours with the
sandwiches they made before they left, you have border controls
with Canada and Mexico and you have work visas and other methods,
such as the H1-B, to severely limit influx.
So, back to the net and the regular interminable net debates
about H1-B visas and American tech employment problems.
Why do programmes such as H1-B exist, for no reason other than to
slightly relax the tight restrictions that geography and border
controls and immigration and visa regulations impose upon the
labour pool market... there is a scarcity there that competing
companies in other parts of the world do not face, and that means
an economic disadvantage.
The other side of the coin is the business economy, I don't
imagine any business in the USA feels and more secure about next
years turnover figures than any business in the EU, so managers
are looking to making a profit next year, not ten and twenty year
plans.
On the net you see people complaining, H1-B is unfair
competition, it is used by companies to drive US workers wages
down and to export work overseas, and this must be stopped. Well,
you're right, it is used to drive US workers wages down and
to export work overseas, simply because your wages are too high
for the work you do, and your border controls limit the labour
pool artificially, so if company X wishes to stay competitive and
trading next year, it has to do *something* to bring it more into
line with its competitors overseas.
Now, here is what I have observed in my lifetime.
If a country is poor economically, it will import skilled labour,
such as my dad, to run tin mining or oil drilling or coal mining,
and if a country is wealthy economically, it will import skilled
labour, like me, to work for rich people who preferred to employ
a northern European who spoke their own language. Alongside both
there is always importation of semi-skilled and unskilled labour,
Malaysia had the Chinese coolies wielding hoes, Zambia had the
Tonga tribe wielding picks and shovels, UAE had the Baluchistani
wielding shovels, but you knew the glory days were gone when you
saw a "white man" driving a JCB digger in Abu Dhabi.
These H1-B jobs aren't skilled, they are semi skilled, sorry
if that pisses you off but it is a fact, a CS degree is a lot
easier to get than a commercial multi-engine jet license or a
neurosurgeons ticket or suchlike. Computer Science died a death
when people who had no innate talent and no fascination for the
subject got into it for no other reason than the promise of big
bucks. The same is true of Engineering. "Engineer" used
to mean something, nowadays it is an appendix added to
"Photocopier" or "Tumble dryer".
Most of my contemporaries age wise were playing with computers
before Microsoft were much more than a bit player, so MCSE means
Must Consult Someone Else, and you hear comments like "why
should I waste my time getting a worthless qualification that
only came out after I'd already been in the industry over a
decade?"
The fact they are still in the trade is down to two things, vast
experience and decades of learning how to avoid mistakes that are
non obvious to those who have less experience or are more
specialized, but the days when headhunters used to ring them out
of the blue and offer lucrative jobs at better wages and better
conditions than their current gig are long past.
The H1-B visa programme is a symptom of what is wrong with the
USA, it is a band aid on a bullet wound.
Here in the UK anyone from anywhere in the EU can come and work,
no permits required, our island with a native population of
around 60 million citizens exists in a labour market of some 450
million citizens, none of whom are more than 48 hours away by
road, none of whom need any kind of permits, many of whom come
from areas where the cost of living is 25% or less of the UK
average. They can commute on a weekly basis or stay for six
months or move here, as their whim takes them.
If anyone here in the UK thinks closing borders, opting out of
the EU and implementing an H1-B style visa programme is going to
bring back the glory days when you could tell the boss to shove
it on a Thursday and start and new, better paid job the next
Monday is dreaming.
Employers will either shut up shop and move to the European
mainland, or go bust. Those jobs that cannot be exported due to
the nature of the services, such as domestic plumbers, will find
themselves looking for work in an economy where lots of factories
closed, jobs went overseas, and most people are too busy
struggling to pay off the mortgage to thing about a new bathroom
suite and new kitchen. Hard times.
Fifty years ago the UK, and the USA, could have pulled up the
drawbridges and gone self sufficient, some things we would have
had to do without, bananas, oranges, but everything else we could
and did make on these shores. Great, Ferguson and Baird
televisions running 425 line UHF stuffed to the gills with
Mullard Valves, transistorised stuff was out (hell, the UK
basically invented the transistor and gave it to the USA in WW2
to keep it out of the Germans hands) but there wasn't the
market for it. The british bike industry could and did make ass
kicking 4 cylinder motorcycles that were as good as anything
coming out of the Honda factory back then, but there wasn't
the market for it, pulling up those drawbridges stops trade in
BOTH directions see.
Honda took off when it met the same conditions Triumph had 40
years earlier, when less than 10% of production was for the
domestic market. Same goes for Nipponese Victory Company, known
to you as JVC, same for Sony, same for Fiat, same for Nokia, same
for anything else you can shake a stick at. How about Microsoft
for a modern example.
When the rest of the world is playing the global marketplace game
then domestic markets and pulling up drawbridges makes you North
Korea.
The USA arguably took over the role of world economic and
industrial powerhouse from the UK, you may lead us in fashions
such as valley girl speak, plastic surgery for the masses and
divorce lawyers, but in some things we lead you, if you have the
wit to see which way the wind is blowing.
The days of studying engineering in Scotland or mining in
Cornwall being sufficient to guarantee you a *good* job anywhere
in the world are long gone, and they ain't coming back. I
can't speak for Scotland but if you are in Cornwall now
unless you want to work six months of the year for the so called
tourist trade as a commis chef you don't have many options,
certainly none that will land you a good job anywhere on the
planet. Doesn't matter how innately talented and brilliant
you are, the world renowned centres of excellence such as
Dalcoath College (hard rock mining school) are long gone too.
Look at the A380 airbus, a major clusterfuck over two years late,
not because this bit was made here and that bit made there, not
because of different languages, not even because of different
software, but because nobody bothered to make a jig to test fit
German built fuselage sections with French built fuselage
sections, AT THE FACTORY IN GERMANY, so for two years they
shipped bits that needed extensive reworking of the wiring, and
the blame was put on incompatible visualization software, not
third rate engineering practices. Boeing are celebrating the
Airbus cock up, they shouldn't, wait till the Asians start
building fuselage the same way they built cars and motorcycles
and portable radios.... they have a head start because they have
to make far less units per annum to vastly exceed domestic
consumption and get into that boom time scenario where most of
your production is exported.
The "R" Word.
Recession, not to be confused with a financial recession on the
Stock Market, because I can sit in the New York stock exchange
and make money trading futures in OLED production in the Far
East, but *real* recession, where your labour just isn't in
as much demand as it used to be. That is what the USA is
experiencing right now, and the UK too. It is a no brainer,
spiralling consumer debt just doesn't happen when people are
raking in the dough.
I did not adopt a fairly radical "cut my suit according to
my cloth" downsizing of my own personal lifestyle, and
economy drive on steroids, because I am an eco freak or because I
really don't want 55" 1080i screens in every room, an
L88 vette in the driveway and a cigarette boat in the river, I
did it because they money just ain't there to be had any
more, unless I want to go down the suicidal personal debt route,
and I just don't see the status quo changing in time to pay
off that accrued debt, so it was downsize my lifestyle now, while
I still had a choice.
Get out of Dodge? where am I going to go? Where can I go in the
EU and compete with workers who are used to getting less than 25%
of my wage? Where can I go outside the EU? Australia? Great place
to emigrate to in 1970, going there now is like buying MS stock,
probably a good bet, but missed the boom years.
Not my fault? Not fair? Not what I want to hear?
Doesn't matter, the world doesn't owe me a living.
USAians, don't look at the H1-B visa programme and complain
about companies exploiting american workers, look at the H1-B
visa programme and see it for what it is, a warning sign, there
is an economic storm coming and lifeboat places are likely to be
in short supply, don't wait until everyone else has wet feet
before deciding to make your move.
Guy Fawkes your opinions are quite right, this is a global marketplace, no holds barred and a tectonic shift from the earlier days of wage earning. I strongly agree with your lines :
"Employers are sluts into easy sex, that is the bottom line"
"unless I want to go down the suicidal personal debt route"
"Doesn't matter, the world doesn't owe me a living"
Regarding the A380, where do you think Boeing was building all their parts? Seattle? Gosh, no. They were importing the parts from everywhere, just like Airbus. The real reasons for the A380's troubles have to do with the lack of airports which can support it. The facts are very simple: The skies are very hard to fill. It's the runways we need to be concerned about.
As for the H1B visas, the way I see it is that we can either bring guest workers here and let them spend money in our economy, or we can send our work overseas and watch that money get spent everywhere else. As you might imagine, I'm not happy about those visas, but given what is already happening in so many other areas of the US economy, it's the lesser of two evils.
Ultimately, the places in the world that will succeed in this global economy are those where the education and infrastructure support the businesses reasonably and sustainably. I'm betting the US economy, even as screwed up as it is, will still be a solid contender. Whether it stays that way depends on our political system realizing what makes a country a desirable place to run a business.
1. The 65,000 cap has been in place since 2004. In 2001, 2002 and 2003 the cap was 195,000 -- three times higher.
2. The cap is for applications for that year. H-1B status can last up to 6 years, unless terminated in advance. So there is a bit of accumulation if you want to calculate total number of H-1B foreign workers in the U.S. at any given time.
3. Many H-1B workers are "dual-intent", which means they're looking to move over and get either permanent residency or citizenship.
4. H-1B are skilled technical workers, not burger-flippers. They are, by their nature, hard working, driven and decently educated.
The other side of the coin is that H-1B can be looked upon as skimming the cream of foreign workers. The best and brightest of the rest of the world come over to the U.S., many with the intent of making it their home. Other nations are worried about the "brain drain" that opportunities in the West cause.
If you assume a certain amount of immigration is inevitable, which would you rather have come over to make this their home? Under-educated, non-English speaking laborers looking for work; or advanced-degree holding, English speaking, already-guaranteed-employment people?
The other side of the coin is that H-1B can be looked upon as skimming the cream of foreign workers. The best and brightest of the rest of the world come over to the U.S., many with the intent of making it their home. Other nations are worried about the "brain drain" that opportunities in the West cause.
The best and brightest in the world going to the USA? Let's look at that.
#1 "Brain drain" assumes that there is a finite supply, and demand exceeds it, so for the USA to get the quota it wants everyone else has to go short.
This is not and never has been the case, anywhere, ever.
Build it and they will come is nearer the truth, where "it" is is just considered as part of the package.
#2 "best and brightest" is an assumption, if I was a physicist I might find Switzerland much more attractive than the USA, from the career point of view, or China, from the standard of living attainable point of view, or France, from a personal liberty when boarding an aeroplane point of view.
#3 Unless your Universities are populated by >95% local citizens then you are a source of brain drain, not a destination. Our local university has evolved into a major business and earner of foreign income for exactly this reason.
#4 Let's take the UK (pop 60 million) vs EU (pop 450 million) as an example of that, are we brain draining the rest of europe and getting the brightest and best, are we buggery.... we are getting those who don't have real roots, those who aren't good enough to get a job in their own town, and those who are here only because of economic reasons factoring in relative costs of living and wages, and in there we also get a few bloody good ones, by any standard.
If you assume a certain amount of immigration is inevitable, which would you rather have come over to make this their home? Under-educated, non-English speaking laborers looking for work; or advanced-degree holding, English speaking, already-guaranteed-employment people?
Every nation needs a broad spectrum of peoples and trades, in every society there will be a greater need for sanitation engineers than neurosurgeons, even if you build an island that contains nothing but a neurosurgery clinic and support infrastructure.
Cherry picking the top percentile of academia will get you nothing but an elite class that is foreign and can and will ultimately pack up and go home, one way immigration and naturalisation for LIFE is quite rare, lots of people who emigrate to Australia can't afford to move back home, lots of those who can do, even after ten or more years (my folks spent 16 years in Malaysia working for one company) and bottom line is nobody is a stakeholder, but while they are "there" they effect change upon "there" to make it more like "here", to the detriment of those born and raised "there"
The Uk had massive state sponsored immigration a few decades ago, we wanted people to drive buses and trains and do jobs nobody else wanted that involved serving other people. It sort of worked.
Academic based immigration gets you degree qualified linguists driving taxis and cleaning toilets, feeling disenfranchised and cheated is a VERY common feeling amongst visa and emigre workers the world over (the view from the other side of the H1-B debate, ask the visa holders how they feel)
Notably, the once place where this sort of institutionalised "can't be as good as a local boy" attitude is not present is in the Boardroom, being foreign is no barrier to getting a job as a CEO.
With my public school accent and education I could get a job as a Butler, at least I could in a household that didn't know what a real butler did, but as a time served engineer my credentials are as worthless as my experience, when competing with a local.
Under educated non-english speaking labourers? yeah, we call them Polish. For starters lots of them can speak one or two languages apart from their native tongue, to a high standard, but english is their third or fourth language, and they ___do___ learn it, just give em a year, and like me trying for a job in the USA, many of them are highly qualified and experience back home, but their credentials and experience are incompatible in their new country, so they end up doing menial, labouring jobs, and those jobs don't require fluent english or baccalaureates flying out of the wazzoo...
Seventeen years ago I was earning gross just about a quarter of a million pounds a year, self employed engineer, cigarettes were 80 for (the equivalent of) a pound, beer was 3 x 30 cl bottles for a pound, a luxury apartment was 150 pound a month. I learned the local lingo, eat local food, paid local tax, acted in every way like a local, "You're english, no way!" was something I heard a lot from the locals.
Back here in the UK where I was born, since then I have beheaded BSE suspected cattle and incinerated the bodies in a gas fired furnace, alone, I have guarded topsoil on a road scheme, I've worked on road resurfacing gangs, I've done 2000+ miles a week as a long distance motorcycle courier, and I have been turned down for jobs that I could do in my sleep, because my credentials are incompatible.
I sincerely doubt I'd get a visa to visit the USA, and short of marrying an american chick there's no way I'd get a social security number and job, yet, I am one of the least likely ever to be a burden on the state people you will meet. But the stuff I am *good* at, nobody will give me a job doing it, so it would have to be a hobby, so I might as well stay at home and make it a full time hobby.
"Labourers" appears to be a dirty word, I don't see anything dishonourable about doing a hard days manual labour, you damn well out to get a hard days pay for it though. And Labourers spend money as good as anyone else, on cars, santiation engineers, electrical goods, computers, recreation, clothes and houses and public services.
I didn't make the big bucks because of my personality, I made it despite my personality. Always tell new money owning a yacht, they didn't like seeing you, talking to you or paying you, let the hired skipper do that, even if I am bloody stood there, I have literally even threatened "If you are going to treat me like shit to climb down into your holding tanks and swim in your shit and piss to remove, service and reinstate a pump that was only buggered up in the first place because someone in YOUR cabin insists on putting tampons down a toilet that has a bloody great sign on the lid saying "soft toilet tissue ONLY, no sanitary towels, tampons or nappies" and not talk to me directly then you are fucking well going to pay me double my usual rate."
"Skipper, pay the man whatever he wants."
Unbelieveable, old money would be down their with you, passing spanners and telling jokes about Jasper crashing the bentley into the hearse.
Immigration is indeed inevitable, and given a choice I like the way we have it here, any of the 450 million in the EU have as much right to live and work here as me, it's preferable to arbitrary barriers imposed by a state, that might provoke reciprocal barriers, you never know, I might fancy a gig in Poland sometime, even if the wages are less, 50 bucks for a hotel, meals and all night drinking for two goes a long way.
#1 "Brain drain" is commonly used to indicate a large number of a certain sector is going elsewhere to study/work, causing a shortage at home. There is a finite supply of workers in specific industries, as there is a finite supply of graduates each year. If the local demand outstrips the local supply, and it is caused by locals seeking work elsewhere, it is a "brain drain".
It is, however, temporary, as market forces will adjust to compensate.
#2 Yes, you might. But the reality is the U.S. attracts quite a bit of the educated professional crowd. We aren't exclusive, obviously. But the fact is, there are a lot of top professionals and highly educated people that choose to come over to the U.S. to work and live.
#4+ The U.S. and the U.K. have different situations. There is a fundamental difference between Europe and the U.S. that, until you've lived in both places, you just can't really grasp.
In Europe, if you make a wrong turn in the car, you end up in a different country. People, customs, language, and everything is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. That can't happen in the U.S. There may be a bit of an accent, but everyone speaks the same language and eats the same basic foods and shops in the same stores, etc.
The biggest impact this has is language. Yes, it is common for Europeans to speak multiple languages. They have to, if they travel much outside of their home town. In the U.S. however, there is little point. Almost everyone you're going to encounter speaks English. If you want to learn a second language, your choice is almost always Spanish, then possibly French. After that, most primary schools don't have anything else. A rare few have German, Russian or Japanese. The only way you're going to learn Czech, Polish, Hebrew, Arabic, or anything else is by private study and it could take some doing finding a local teacher.
Thus, 90% of our immigrant laborers speak Spanish. Period. Keep going south of Mexico and what do they speak? Out side of a few native tongues, 90% of it is Spanish. The two exceptions are Brazil (Portuguese) and some of the islands in the Caribbean and Fr. Guyana where they speak French. There is a touch of Dutch, but they almost never migrate up to the U.S. Go north and what do you have? English, except for Quebec where they speak French.
While there are ethnic enclaves in the U.S., the reality is that the only people that speak anything but English, Spanish and French over here are immigrants from elsewhere. And, unlike what happens in Europe, they usually lose their native language over a generation or two.
* * *
Laborers isn't a dirty word, even if you do spell it with a "u". :-) However, your sentiment of "they ought to get paid a hard days work" isn't going to happen because of supply and demand. Most labor is non-skilled or semi-skilled. The supply of laborers is almost endless because just about anyone can be taught to do it in a short period of time. Experience helps, but isn't necessary.
Professional skills need extensive training. You don't become a doctor, lawyer, architect, accountant or engineer (and I mean real, degreed engineer) without a lot of schooling and a bunch of experience. You can't replace someone like that with a week of OJT.
Supply and demand dictate the pay, among other factors.
And yes, I've spent plenty of time digging post holes (by hand), stretching barbed wire and everything else a ranch hand has to do. I'm well acquainted with hard, physical labor.
Finally, you might be surprised on your ability to get a work permit for the U.S. H-1B is just one category. The U.S. sets aside work permits based on country of origin. Believe it or not, there are several countries every year who have visas left over. Not enough people from, say, the Netherlands want to come over to work. I believe England is one of those with a crapload of slots, but I haven't checked lately.
It's #3 that bothers me- the dual intent bit. I say, why bring somebody over as a non-immigrant guest worker limited to 6 years of residency if their real intent is to be an immigrant? Immigration is inevitable, and with what first world status seems to do to human fertility, the United States NEEDS a minimum of 500,000 people a year coming here to work just to maintain the labor force. Why not just make all of those green cards with no limits?
Maybe there is a coming storm, but do we then just throw up our hands and do nothing or take action to lessen impact? In other words, if we can choose to go from 100 KPH to zero by one of two methods do we aim for the structural concrete wall and do it in 1 mm or do we use the brakes and do it in three hundred meters?
Protectionist measures can be bad and done to an extreme like N. Korea, or can be applied smartly and in moderation to cushion impacts, and give time to adapt.
There might be alternatives to the view "things are really crappy here in UK and you in the USA need to hurry up and get crappy just like us because it's going to happen anyway". Maybe we don't need to rush, maybe we give ourselves time to adjust to global demands. And If we were doing everything we should be doing to address looming issues the whole world faces, there would be no end to demand for work to be done by U.S. citizens right here in the U.S.
There might be alternatives to the view "things are really crappy here in UK and you in the USA need to hurry up and get crappy just like us because it's going to happen anyway"
Things are crappy here in the UK, from the perspective of someone who tasted the gravy train.
The gravy train is gone, it ain't coming back.
I am not saying USA needs to hurry up and get crappy like us, I am saying that our present crappy situation is not caused by open EU borders, and I am saying that protectionism will only make things worse.
The USA is also heading for the same cultural employment changes that the rest of the world is going through, you can't avoid it, but you can make it hurt the USA, and nobody else, worse, and you can do that by protectionism.
So it is not "hurry up and get crappy like us" but "hurry up an adapt like us"... there is a difference.
If you prefer to live in luxury inside security stockades in your own country that is of course your freedom to do so, what you can't do is pass a rule or law that will compensate for actual economic forces at play, any more than Tony Blair can pass a law or rule that will somehow wipe out the 4to1 cost of living ratio between here and poland, so the locals get their jobs back, with zero other repercussions of any kind.
You say there should be no end to demand for work to be done by US citizens right there in the US.... dude, demand don't mean shit, there is no end of demand for sex, but few will pay ten bucks for it, there is demand for flying cars and free electricity, but no economic foundation for any of them.
You want a 2008 American made truck to be 100% american made in the old sense of the word, from american iron ore smelted by americans with american coal on down, you can have it, it'll cost you three times what the 2007 model costs, and nobody outside america will buy one, and if you stop exporting, you stop being able to service the national debt, and the instant that happens you get total economic collapse, and no trucks made in 2009.
Americans need to WAKE UP, you only sleep because your geographical isolation and former economic might allowed you to doze through the rumblings.
UK was THE powerhouse, fifty years ago we were the biggest exporter or vehicles on the planet, today the largest volume UK car manufacturer is Metrocab, maker of london taxis, and most of the parts are imports.
Americans should read that last paragraph aloud ten times over until it sinks in. In our lifetime the Yellow Cab company or whatever they are called could be the largest volume american vehicle manufacturer, detroit, gone, milwaukee, gone, etc etc.
I can remember, not as a boy but as a young man, drunk on a friends floor in birmingham (UK) hearing the thump of the sheet metal press at 3 am, it was 3 miles away, it has ALL gone, 100 years of car making history, tens of thousand of jobs at the plant, god knows how many associated trades and industries, it has gone, same as the coal mines, same as aviation industry, same as railway industry, same as shipping industry.
YOU ALREADY HAVE SHOCK ABSORBERS, geographical isolation and momentum, they are running out, Flint, Michigan, sucks when it happens to one town, when it starts happening to ALL your big manufacturing towns, what are you going to do? Are are you going to do what EVERYONE here did, and claim, in all honesty and total confidence, that it was unthinkable, could not happen, would not be allowed to happen, could never happen?
Arthur Scargill, who warned it would happen, he said the coal industry would die, was branded a lunatic, a commie, an agitator, he was stalked by the secret service, a generation later and here we are, from 172 collieries in 1984 to 12 today, and three of them are closing.
Guys, I am not saying this to cheer it on or have a go at the yanks, I'm trying to warn you, your dam is weeping, start acting now, and by that I mean start planning to adapt to the changes that nobody can prevent.
you're right about us needing to adapt, and adapt faster, and big change is coming. Your warning is quite valid. But the thing I'm complaining about is big corporations and their government lapdogs going so far as to force the tides. There are things we can do to make things somewhat better and more gradual for those of us footing most of the tax bill in the near term, and if that hurts the big corps some or keeps a guy in Bombay with B.S. in CS out of a U.S. job for another decade that's fine by me. Because industries and skill demand will rise and fall is no reason to proactively destroy them.
My wishful thinking was about jobs for which there is no demand yet, if we really got busy on pollution, waste, seawater desalinization, managing/farming rather than plundering the ocean, cures for disease, etc., the would be no end of jobs. And this is a POCA in the orbit, so to speak, of the way things are in the U.S. at the moment to kick things in that direction. Thus far we've had leadership lip service and token efforts.
Thanks for the great articles, by the way, great for thought and discussion. Hope there's many more.
The auto-industry is centered in the US, Japan, and Germany, all rich countries. Yes, some parts are built overseas, but big deal. UK's auto industry died because it produced rubbish. Same with your coal industry which was state-owned and inefficient. You can't blame those losses on immigration, they were both very much home-made failures.
Thatcher's economics saved UK from inevitable (further) decline as did Reaganomics rescue the US from it's high inflation and unemployment of that same era. Both embraced free markets, and the world saw how it worked and followed. All this "wake up" alarm in your article is twenty five years late.
Question: Your article refers to the Poles and other cheap labor, but you don't really touch the cause of your not being able to work in your engineering field. Yes, I.T. workers are not airline pilots or neurosurgeons, but they're not burger flippers either. I know a number of I.T. workers in London that have no problem getting work, and all the UK I.T. workers I've known have been Brits. You don't seem to have such a great proportion of Chinese or Indians (as I.T. workers, you have more Indians on the whole) as you do in the U.S. The cheap Eastern-Euro labor influx doesn't explain loss of jobs in the I.T. sector.
The auto industry is centred where the headquarters are and where they pay taxes, US yes, but in decline, Japan yes, but growth is limited, Germany no, been declining for years, Korea, Malaysia, China, they are the ones to watch.
UK auto industry didn't die because it produced rubbish, yes, there were some mind bogglingly crap cars, austin allegro anyone, but the yank auto industry has produced some utter shit too. There were a multitude of interrelated reasons that killed the Uk car industry, quality wasn't one of the real problems.
our coal industry was all deep mine, not open cast, and most of it was good coal too, anthracite, and many of the pits were indeed state of the art, but the clean air act and cheap even before they were subsidised foreign open cast lignite mines supplying the power stations killed it.
Immigration didn't kill them, bad management did, bad advertising did, plunging exports did, protectionist laws did, foreign subsidies did, not understanding the global marketplace did, all the same challenges the USA faces now.
Thatchers "economics"..... well, trying to tell an englishman they saved the country is like telling a frenchman the wermacht tanks tilled their soil for free, thatcher claimed to embrace free markets, when in reality she was a pump and dump merchant and asset stripper.
I know she is held up elsewhere as an icon by everyone who wants to emulate her actions, and they will all tell you before her britain was in dire trouble, nearly bankrupt, except that isn't true, not even a bit of it, lay aside the OPEC problems and we had it good, I know, I lived here then, our currency was backed by gold, we all had the right to be paid weekly in cash, and I could go on and on and on.
thatcher is remembered for the poll tax riots, the highest rates of house reposessions ever, the highest number of small business bankruptcies ever, stealing publicly owned assets such as railways, water board, councils, postal system, and selling them to bankers and financiers, so now they are all fucking expensive and fucking crap with it.
Reaganomics, we heard about it, apparently you heard a different version....
Way we heard it was
1/ people below official poverty level went from 31 million in 1981 to 39 million in 92.
2/ the peanut farmer left the country with 990 billion debt in 81, ray gun left it with 2,860 billion.
3/ the US trade deficit quadrupled,br>
4/ Clinton raised taxes on the rich, it didn't slow the economy, ray gun lowered taxes on the rich, and especially the super rich and corporations, it did slow down the economy
The reason I cannot work in the engineering field locally is that it does not exist any more, this is the point I cannot get across to Americans, gone as in the sites bulldozed, gone as in never coming back, gone as in took everything associated with it and supporting it too.
London, yeah, london thinks and acts like it is the UK, everything else is a suburb, unless it is marked "here be dragons" on the map.
Nice property for sale in chelsea, 3000 square feet so it is big enough inside, but no gardens or workshop like I have here, and it needs refurbishment, which is estate agent speak for the mice wear overalls, a bargain at a mere, at the current 2 to 1 exchange rate, five million bucks.
If you're a good oracle bod you can pull down maybe 80k bucks US a year, not here though.... Want to see what sort of house half a million dollars will buy you within walking distance of me?
http://tinyurl.com/2a2el3
Note the front "garden", big enough to park a pushbike in, until it is stolen, note the rear garden shot, looking ABOVE the 20 foot x 60 foot patch of dirt that is only accessible through the house itself, three bedroom house, the master bedroom is 13 foot square, #2 is 12 foot x 10 foot, #3 is 8 foot square
For a quarter of a million bucks you can buy an ex council house (thanks maggie thatcher for selling off the council housing stock and not replacing it) the same size but cheaper because the police have your neighbours on speed dial and friends and family, and keep you entertained with rotating fuzz lights on your ceiling at night.
bargain
You can always get a job as a bus driver, 36,ooo bucks with overtime, there is an oracle job going locally too, 55,000 bucks, or a web designer, 24,000 bucks, ask nicely and you'll get a mortgage of 4.5 times your annual take home salary.
BTW, gasoline is called petrol here, and it is two bucks a litre at the pump, diesel too.
Your water bill, from that nice privatised water company that maggie sold off, so that they could diversify into property and crap instead of fixing leaking mains, will be 1600 bucks a year, ours landed today.
Your council tax bill, which gets your rubbish collected once every two weeks, and nothing else that I can see, is 2,000 bucks a year, but get in quick cos now they are going to charge households extra, weighing RFID implanted bins.
The bus fare (privatised by guess who) is about 4 bucks for the ride into town, 2 miles if that, but the service is not good enough to get you to work on time unless you leave real early, eg leave home at 7.45 for an 8.30 start 3 miles away, and you'll have to stand.
Train to London is about 100 bucks, privatised by guess who so it will be late, and standing room only.
PS3 on sale now, 900 bucks with 3 free games.
We also have something called VAT, think of it as federal and state sales tax rolled into one, applies to most things you can buy, a snip at 17.5%.
Tell me about Thatcher being the best thing ever to happen to us, and there being tons of work available in London...
The last time I was in the U.K. was about 5 years ago. I spent a week in Portsmouth and a weekend in London. While down south, I checked out listings for houses. My jaw dropped, and I asked several local co-workers how the hell they could afford to live there. None of them had a good answer, other than "barely" and "get lots of flatmates".
After paying for the hotel, food, car, petrol, etc. I only had one thing to say -- "Thank Jebus for the Corporate AMEX!" At the time I was making $60K, but with a wife and three kids, I would have starved over there.
The U.K. is a nice place to visit, but damn it is expensive!
You want a 2008 American made truck to be 100% american made in the old sense of the word, from american iron ore smelted by americans with american coal on down, you can have it, it'll cost you three times what the 2007 model costs, and nobody outside america will buy one, and if you stop exporting, you stop being able to service the national debt, and the instant that happens you get total economic collapse, and no trucks made in 2009.
Not necessarily. If absolutely EVERYTHING in the economy is 100% American made, then the exchange rate is largely irrelevant. Besides, when the exchange rate naturally shifts such that a $100,000 American car costs 5000 to 10000 euros, a market will open for the exports.
I don't advocate that at all, but it IS a way out of hyperinflation.
I also don't advocate simply flinging the gates open without making other adjustments first. A more creative approach is to fix the "impedance mismatch" in economies by bringing the smaller economies up instead. The way to keep jobs from flying offshore to (for example) India is to encourage the growth of local demand IN India. That will drive up the cost of Indian labor to near U.S. levels.
The Fortune 500 executives won't like it because effectively it is offshoring THEIR jobs for a change.
It's all well and good when economists point out that everything will balance in the end, but after all, they aren't the ones who will suffer the most in the interem when income is dropping fast and the cost of living won't budge.
The REAL adjustment that must eventually happen is much more interesting. With increasing mechanization, demand for labor in general must fall. We must adjust our economies and in fact the whole arrangement of employment and the social contract to permit that to be painless to the masses. Otherwise, the masses WILL do the rational thing and simply take what they need to live any way they have to.
The USA is a bit different, the labour market is more limited, mainly due to geographic factors, USA is big and spread out, and there are oceans on two sides, 4 guys in a crappy old car can't drive in to where the work is in 48 hours with the sandwiches they made before they left, you have border controls with Canada and Mexico and you have work visas and other methods, such as the H1-B, to severely limit influx.
Not entirely true. While there are controls along the Mexican border, those controls do not stem the tide of illegal immigrants. Sure, those immigrants don't directly affect the skilled market, but they do have an indirect impact. The market pressure they produce forces more labor up the chain. Those people who used to work in meat packing plants, picking up garbage, doing lawn work, cleaning offices, etc., are now displaced and are trying to move up the chain. Putting pressure on the unskilled market has created pressure on the skilled market. Importing H1-B's has put additional pressure on the skilled market.
In general I agree with GuyFawkes (yes, I mis-spelled the name in a post a while back, and yes I'm well aware of the Great "V" movie!). But what to do? I'm not the type to roll over and let what happens happen. There has to be something we can do to, at least, prepare for the change. Personally, I'm looking at going to the dark side - MBA land. It's better to be a shark than a tuna when you are surrounded by sharks.
Not entirely true. While there are controls along the Mexican border, those controls do not stem the tide of illegal immigrants. Sure, those immigrants don't directly affect the skilled market, but they do have an indirect impact. The market pressure they produce forces more labor up the chain. Those people who used to work in meat packing plants, picking up garbage, doing lawn work, cleaning offices, etc., are now displaced and are trying to move up the chain. Putting pressure on the unskilled market has created pressure on the skilled market. Importing H1-B's has put additional pressure on the skilled market.
The way around it is to accept that we WILL have immigrants- and take some measures to make sure those immigrants are brought in legally AND have adequate worker protections. I still say the real problem that these guest worker visas are trying to correct isn't the ability to bring in workers, but rather the speed at which we allow in legal immigrants. In today's world- a three to four year wait for decision on a green card is ridiculous. Find a way to do electronic data interchange with the countries these people are coming from- do a check for outstanding warrents when they apply on the web page- and grant the green card right there and then. If we do that, illegal immigration AND guest worker programs will disappear- there will be no further need for them.
Thanks for the glass is half empty view. How about looking at globalization as the world getting richer with China, Eastern Europe, and India's (over 1/3 of the planet) middle class growing, and their markets opening, Can you say "increased demand for goods and services"? Can you say "opportunity and jobs"?
As to your "where your labour just isn't in as much demand as it used to be" where are you getting this from? U.S. unemployment is at 4.5% right now.
All of you who whine about things not being like the good ole' days should read "Who moved my cheese?" (of which Guy Fawkes article here can be related). A simple book with an obvious but valuable lesson. I'm sure you techies are familiar with disruptive technology. Globalization is disruptive technology. The lesson to learn from disruptive technology is you flee you die, you embrace you compete. Yes, the world is changing, and I say hallelujah.
Thanks for the glass is half empty view. How about looking at globalization as the world getting richer with China, Eastern Europe, and India's (over 1/3 of the planet) middle class growing, and their markets opening, Can you say "increased demand for goods and services"?
Not until they get a minimum wage equal to ours- until then they're too poor to afford our goods and services. There is the idea of free trade with EQUAL partners, which could work.
Can you say "opportunity and jobs"?
This, however, falls into the NO CHANCE category. There is no way they'll ever be able to afford to import goods and services with populations of that size. EVERYTHING can be done cheaper in India and China until they have full employment, at which point there will be no opportunity or jobs left for anybody else.
As to your "where your labour just isn't in as much demand as it used to be" where are you getting this from? U.S. unemployment is at 4.5% right now.
Depends on how you monkey with the figures- either US unemployment is at 4.5% of the LABOR FORCE, or at 67% of the POPULATION, or anyplace in between based on your definition of who is employable at all. My guess is that the 4.5% is as much a lie as any other number you get out of the BLS- and that the reality is closer to 25% of those who actually WANT a job (the rest of the 67% being too sick, too young, too old, or too rich).
All of you who whine about things not being like the good ole' days should read "Who moved my cheese?" (of which Guy Fawkes article here can be related). A simple book with an obvious but valuable lesson. I'm sure you techies are familiar with disruptive technology. Globalization is disruptive technology. The lesson to learn from disruptive technology is you flee you die, you embrace you compete. Yes, the world is changing, and I say hallelujah.
I've read it. The problem isn't just that globalization is disruptive technology. Globalization is a direct breaking of the social contract under which corporations were made legal to begin with; and should be treated as a breach of contract. Any corporation dealing in it should lose their right to be a business at all.
> There is no way they'll ever be able to afford to import goods and services with populations of that size. EVERYTHING can be done cheaper in India and China until they have full employment, at which point there will be no opportunity or jobs left for anybody else.
For the low-end stuff yes. For the high-end stuff no, and they can afford it now. Do you not think their computers have Intel chips, US or Japanese motherboards, and Seagate disks? Where are the operating systems and most of the software that runs on these computers written? Yes Infosys & Wipro are huge, but can you name one piece of software they sell? Who provides the Internet search-engines to India (I know that China has it's own)? Where are their cell-phones designed? I know that India's auto-industry is protected right now, but if they opened it up how long do you think it would last against the Japanese auto industry? Yes, the low-end manufacture of all these products occurs in poor countries, but the corporate HQ and higher paying skilled jobs for the most part are in rich countries. Now that's products. How about services? In terms of financial services the developed world makes what India and China look absolutely prehistoric.
The point is, established, large, successful, US, European, and Japanese corporations are chomping at the bit to get access to Indian and Chinese markets. Do you really think they'd want to if there was no way Indians and Chinese could afford it? Yes, there is a large amount of poverty, but the huge middle-class rising in those countries are a business opportunity begging to happen.
> Globalization is a direct breaking of the social contract under which corporations were made legal to begin with; and should be treated as a breach of contract. Any corporation dealing in it should lose their right to be a business at all.
What hippy garbage. The world is much better off with Globalization and free-markets than without. Countries are free to withdraw at any time, to their peril.
Is it right for a U.S. corporation and the U.S government to benefit from the "market" of an enslaved people under a "communist" government that murders and tortures its own citizens and denies freedom of religion and thought? Is that a "free-market"? How about that country then using the money to build weapons to threaten us at a later date? Maybe we're free to participate, at our future peril.
And China was a bed of roses prior to opening its economy wasn't it? Don't blame the poor behavior of the Chinese government on the free market. It is much improved since they became a more open economy, and it will improve further still as their people get wealthier. Or maybe you're right, maybe they should close up and become just like that bastion of human rights: North Korea.
For the low-end stuff yes. For the high-end stuff no, and they can afford it now. Do you not think their computers have Intel chips, US or Japanese motherboards, and Seagate disks?
US and Japan haven't made that stuff in a decade or more- it's all made in China today. All we do is put together parts that were manufactured elsewhere.
Where are the operating systems and most of the software that runs on these computers written?
Bangalore and Hydrabad, mainly. Higher level architecture and specialty programming is still done in the United States- for US customers- but specialty programming is done as close to the customer as possible for a reason, and when India starts consuming that type of programming, it will be Indian programmers that they hire for exactly the same reason US Citizens are hired for US customers today.
Yes Infosys & Wipro are huge, but can you name one piece of software they sell?
They don't sell software, they sell indentured slaves for short term use.
Who provides the Internet search-engines to India (I know that China has it's own)?
Google programmers in their Hydrabad research center, I'd imagine. Who else would be able to deal with the 74 different dialects and languages in that region?
Where are their cell-phones designed?
My cell phone here in the US was designed on the software side in Microsoft's Hydrabad research center (it runs Windows Mobile) and on the hardware side it's Korean (HTC).
I know that India's auto-industry is protected right now, but if they opened it up how long do you think it would last against the Japanese auto industry?
Probably quite a long time, as the Japanese auto industry is currently tuned to first-world flat paved roads. Japan doesn't make anything that can stand up to the more primitive conditions in the second world. A better example is Peru- which has no tariffs on cars- yet their domestic auto industry is doing quite well because only a narrow (under 4 ft wide) 4 wheel drive, high floorboard vehicle can survive the world's worst highway without crashing.
Yes, the low-end manufacture of all these products occurs in poor countries, but the corporate HQ and higher paying skilled jobs for the most part are in rich countries. Now that's products. How about services?
Services always are done as close to the customer as possible. When India gets a high enough standard of living to demand services, domestic companies will be formed to fill those services. The only reason services have survived outsourcing in the United States is because of consumer side demand- and as more US citizens are laid off, consumer demand will fall. As Henry Ford said when other industrialists laughed at him for paying 5x the prevailing wage of the time- cars don't buy cars, workers buy cars.
The point is, established, large, successful, US, European, and Japanese corporations are chomping at the bit to get access to Indian and Chinese markets.
And they've failed to take into account their own histories in doing so. They didn't get established, large, and successfull by selling to customers halfway around the world- they got that way by turning their own workers into consumers of their goods.
Do you really think they'd want to if there was no way Indians and Chinese could afford it?
I think that US, European, and Japanese corporations are short sighted and optimistic, where the reality is that unless you PAY THE WORKERS you won't FORM CONSUMERS. They can't have both cheap labor AND a market. They can't have their cake and eat it too.
Yes, there is a large amount of poverty, but the huge middle-class rising in those countries are a business opportunity begging to happen.
A business opportunity that is based on service is going to go to those who understand local culture, not a bunch of foreigners who are merely looking for the best profits.
What hippy garbage. The world is much better off with Globalization and free-markets than without. Countries are free to withdraw at any time, to their peril.
Then why has Mexico put up with a 60% increase in the cost of tortillas? No, globalization only enriches the multinational corporations- and the multinational corporations bribe the governments. The citizens of the countries have no say in it whatsoever, and are just there to be stolen from.
Global trade can benefit people, but there are bad ways and good ways to go about it. Suppose I'm a big US corporation. I could outsource to a place that uses child labor or that gets a fair number of people killed every year making my product because of little or no occupational safety laws or accountabilty. I could use my millions of dollars to lobby my government to proactively destroy or severely damage a domestic industry so I can outsource or bring in loads of cheap H-1B indentured servants (and maybe I farm them out illegally to other companies and make another profit), and give recognition to types of governments with practices and beliefs absolutely in contradiction to freedom and liberty so I can use their cheap labor pool and import their cheaper products.
As a not totally unrelated aside, maybe I also lobby and influence such that citizens and small/medium businesses subsidize my industry and my "globalization" efforts and they foot the bill to provide me with a safe and secure HQ here in the good ol' USA while jobs, money, and benefit go elsewhere.
People falsely call what I'm talking about "capitalism". It is not.
> I could outsource to a place that uses child labor or that gets a fair number of people killed every year making my product because of little or no occupational safety laws or accountabilty.
a) To do so would risk bad publicity and boycott threats.
b) That child labor maybe putting food on the table for a family that would not have it. I'm not advocating child labor, but that child is working for a reason and there are consequences to these types of decisions that shouldn't be dismissed. Who should feed the family if the child is not employed? You?
c) It is a government's responsibility to implement labor and environmental laws, not a corporations. And, with the exception of China, I think most places where outsourcing occurs are democracies. i.e. let the people of that country decide what the labor and environmental laws should be. Yes, China is the biggest for manufacturing outsourcing, but with that outsourcing the people become wealthier and more likely to have and demand influence over government policies. With economic freedom comes social freedom. We'll have to watch China and see how true this is.
> I could use my millions of dollars to lobby my government to proactively destroy or severely damage a domestic industry so I can outsource or bring in loads of cheap H-1B indentured servants (and maybe I farm them out illegally to other companies and make another profit)
You are referring to a rich country here and I assume the US. So you think the I.T. industry here is severely damaged or destroyed in the U.S.? Give me a break. The H1B cap has been reduced to 65,000 since 2001 (from 195,000). I agree it the policy needs changing in some aspects, but you it's effect has been negligible.
You are far too pessimistic rubycodez. While I agree globalization and free markets haven't been a smooth ride for everybody all of the time, on the whole it has been a net win for the majority.
a) To do so would risk bad publicity and boycott threats.
Yeah, those work so effectively. Most people don't care enough to go pay an extra dollar or two to cleanse their conscience.
b) That child labor maybe putting food on the table for a family that would not have it. I'm not advocating child labor, but that child is working for a reason and there are consequences to these types of decisions that shouldn't be dismissed. Who should feed the family if the child is not employed? You?
That's so wrong I don't even know where to start. So a child should sacrifice their future and possibly their life to put food on the table. Maybe, just maybe, educating children could allow them to learn valuable job skills so they don't have to force their children into child labor.
c) It is a government's responsibility to implement labor and environmental laws, not a corporations....
For good reason, historically speaking. When all you care about is the bottom line people tend to become victims of the grindstone. My favorite example is the stockholders of Ford Motor Company sued Henry Ford because he had the audacity to actually pay his workers enough to afford the product they made. Once the current outsourcing countries get too uppity they'll just move along...big pig capitalists have this whole big continent in reserve called Africa. All they have to do is get another lackey in the White House to free the people from oppression and the sweatshops will follow.
The devil's advocate response:
Most doubtful in context with your other comments.
but U.S. corporations have already done that. And I'm not talking about teens kept busy supporting their families rather than running around in gangs which is some better than the situation we have in some inner cities. I'm talking children.
The H1B cap has been reduced to 65,000 since 2001
no, it has been reduced since 2004. When the most IT people were out of work post 9/11, the cap went to 195,000 for 2002 and 2003. But "the cap" is just 1/3 of the picture.
There are exempt categories: those seeking extensions for another 3 years, those employed by educational institutions, and those working for nonprofit research organizations. So the total visas issued were:
2002: 370,490
2003: 360,498
2004: 387,147
2005: 407, 917
wow, looks like those caps are kinda misleading, eh?
Pessimistic? I'm a realist, and what I see is an oligarchy and the fat cats who benefit from it.
You are referring to a rich country here and I assume the US. So you think the I.T. industry here is severely damaged or destroyed in the U.S.? Give me a break. The H1B cap has been reduced to 65,000 since 2001 (from 195,000). I agree it the policy needs changing in some aspects, but you it's effect has been negligible.
Yesterday's Lou Dobbs tonight gave us some real numbers on this:
Amount H-1b workers are being paid below prevailing wage: $12,000 less overall, $16,000 less for IT workers.
The 65,000 cap doesn't include people who earn Master's degrees in western universites.
Also excluded are universities and non-profit R&D setups.
And anybody applying for their 2nd H-1b visa.
Biggest group under the cap are IT workers, but for FFY 2004 116,927 IT workers were granted H-1b visas, and 130,497 for FFY 2005.
Both of those years were far above the cap. But a company doesn't even have to be American to apply. Infosys, Wipro, and Cognizant are all Indian companies that depend on H-1b visa holders hired out to other companies for their income.
So yes, given these numbers, the IT industry has been severely damaged in the United States, with downward pressure on wages and numbers far exceeding the cap. Plus, once a contract goes to Infosys, Wipro, or Cognizant, they also get to do a large amount of the work for even less in their offices in India, DIRECTLY moving work offshore.
The H-1b visa might as well be unlimited for all the good the cap has done.
b) That child labor maybe putting food on the table for a family that would not have it. I'm not advocating child labor, but that child is working for a reason and there are consequences to these types of decisions that shouldn't be dismissed. Who should feed the family if the child is not employed? You?
A similar argument was common in the United States before slaves were emancipated. "If they don't work for their master, they won't know what to do and they'll starve." That didn't change the fact that slavery was such an evil institution that such an argument was irrelevant. I don't know if you think extreme examples of child labor (diamond mining in Africa, for example) are as morally repugnant as slavery, but I do.
I agree that it's morally repugnant. I wasn't thinking of diamond mining in Africa, I was thinking of child factory workers in China (assuming they still exist, I wouldn't know). Exclude the diamond workers as I think they are forced, and they are then a fair analogy to slaves. That is, if you let them be free they would and would be better off. But a child laborer in a poor country typically isn't forced (accept maybe by their own parents). They don't have a choice. There is no "freedom" to run to, and in a poor country no government-provided safety net. When there is no food to eat everything else, including schooling, is a luxury. Starve yourself for a day or two and see if you think about anything other than food.
Ask yourself: Do you think his parents don't want what's is best for the child? Why is the child working? I think you'll find that it's not so their parents can put a down-payment on a summer home in the Bahamas. Do you think his parents are sadists? If there is a child working it's typically his, and his family's, best and only option. A government needs income (i.e. taxes) to provide safety nets and that is best achieved by it's citizens becoming relatively wealthy, which is best achieved by an influx of capital from richer countries. While globalization hurts some, I think you'll find the majority wins. Free markets are better than any alternative. Again, compare China with North Korea. Which way does the refugee flow go? Why is it you don't see many Chinese complaining their markets are now open? According to some of you, it is the multinationals that are hurting their children right? Why is it you and not them that is protesting against these multinationals?
You can find it as morally repugnant as you like, but "he should be in school" (on which I agree) requires food to be on his table. Food is not going to magically appear if he starts attending school.
The problem with allowing something like slavery or child labor because of immediacy arguments (they're hungry, they need shelter) is that it perpetuates the practice. If children are hungry and they work at a Chinese factory, it just allows the cycle to continue since they have no education. The best solution long term, even if it starves people short term, is to take away the economic incentives to continue the cycle.
I think it depends some on the individual case. The main thing to ask should be: "is this child labor leading to conditions that will eventually end child labor?" If the answer is no, then something is wrong. For example, with African diamond mining, almost none of the money is going into the local economy. Those people are in a perpetual cycle that is as good as slavery. In China, I have a hard time believing they can't afford the most basic schools for their citizens when they can build hundreds of thermonuclear weapons and start a space program.
To be, or not H1-B, that is the question.
It is USA centric, but one that anyone anywhere on the planet who goes online runs into quite regularly.
My parents were expatriate workers, and I spent much of my life working abroad, so now, living here in the south west of the UK, the boot is on the other foot. The EU has freedom of movement and freedom of employment, and if I go into town now I see cars with number plates from Poland, Lithuania, and just about everywhere else.
Two days ago I took some old fencing wood and other junk down to the recycling centre, the workers in hi-vis vests were calling to each other in Polish, my missus was a cleaner at a local motel, and a dozen or more of the cleaning staff of 15 are now Polish, the girl works as receptionist at the only 4 star hotel in town, and now has a Polish colleague.
These people have as much legal right to be here as anyone, that is enshrined in EU law, and it needs to be said that since coloureds down here are very rare anyway, less than a tenth of a percent of the population, there is plenty of the old fashioned sort of prejudice where blacks are associated with problems in our big cities, so the Poles et al being white are less commented on than if we re-instated a 1950's policy of immigration from the West Indies.
However you don't have to go very far to find someone who will talk to you about the negative affect this influx of Poles is having on the local job market and wages. "Kay won't employ locals anymore, she only wants Polish workers" was one comment I heard two days ago, and it is largely borne out in fact.
There is an element of Polish workers being attractive because they don't know shit about the minimum wage, working conditions, workers rights, health and safety, the taxation system, and there is an element of Polish workers coming from a poorer economy so their lower bar of entry to what they consider an acceptable job and wage is a lot lower than ours, but at the end of the day it is the employer who chooses whom to employ, and nobody is addressing that dirty little fact.
Consider it as an analogy to dating, there is the dating where you go out and look for someone to fall in love with, marry, raise kids and spend the rest of your life with, and there is the dating where all you are interested in is the sex, and none of that nonsense about spending time and money on meals, flowers, cinemas and chocolate when you could be getting down to the beast with two backs.
The "job for life" or career path is the former, and the actual job market today is the latter. Employers are sluts into easy sex, that is the bottom line. Employers are most definitely not into looking for decades long relationships with employees, relationships like that involve give and take, compromise, negotiation, effort, money, whereas the easy sex only requires consenting adults, and there is no shortage of them.
There are two factors that promote the job for life trait in an employer, one is a limited gene pool to pick from, and the other is an environment in which it is easy to sustain a relationship, so that would be limited scope labour pool and economic boom times with no cloud on the horizon.
Fact is neither one of these factors in present today in the UK, thanks to the EU labour is available for any job you care to create, pretty much on your terms, and fact is no company is assured of next years turnover, so employers behave like sluts.
The USA is a bit different, the labour market is more limited, mainly due to geographic factors, USA is big and spread out, and there are oceans on two sides, 4 guys in a crappy old car can't drive in to where the work is in 48 hours with the sandwiches they made before they left, you have border controls with Canada and Mexico and you have work visas and other methods, such as the H1-B, to severely limit influx.
So, back to the net and the regular interminable net debates about H1-B visas and American tech employment problems.
Why do programmes such as H1-B exist, for no reason other than to slightly relax the tight restrictions that geography and border controls and immigration and visa regulations impose upon the labour pool market... there is a scarcity there that competing companies in other parts of the world do not face, and that means an economic disadvantage.
The other side of the coin is the business economy, I don't imagine any business in the USA feels and more secure about next years turnover figures than any business in the EU, so managers are looking to making a profit next year, not ten and twenty year plans.
On the net you see people complaining, H1-B is unfair competition, it is used by companies to drive US workers wages down and to export work overseas, and this must be stopped. Well, you're right, it is used to drive US workers wages down and to export work overseas, simply because your wages are too high for the work you do, and your border controls limit the labour pool artificially, so if company X wishes to stay competitive and trading next year, it has to do *something* to bring it more into line with its competitors overseas.
Now, here is what I have observed in my lifetime.
If a country is poor economically, it will import skilled labour, such as my dad, to run tin mining or oil drilling or coal mining, and if a country is wealthy economically, it will import skilled labour, like me, to work for rich people who preferred to employ a northern European who spoke their own language. Alongside both there is always importation of semi-skilled and unskilled labour, Malaysia had the Chinese coolies wielding hoes, Zambia had the Tonga tribe wielding picks and shovels, UAE had the Baluchistani wielding shovels, but you knew the glory days were gone when you saw a "white man" driving a JCB digger in Abu Dhabi.
These H1-B jobs aren't skilled, they are semi skilled, sorry if that pisses you off but it is a fact, a CS degree is a lot easier to get than a commercial multi-engine jet license or a neurosurgeons ticket or suchlike. Computer Science died a death when people who had no innate talent and no fascination for the subject got into it for no other reason than the promise of big bucks. The same is true of Engineering. "Engineer" used to mean something, nowadays it is an appendix added to "Photocopier" or "Tumble dryer".
Most of my contemporaries age wise were playing with computers before Microsoft were much more than a bit player, so MCSE means Must Consult Someone Else, and you hear comments like "why should I waste my time getting a worthless qualification that only came out after I'd already been in the industry over a decade?"
The fact they are still in the trade is down to two things, vast experience and decades of learning how to avoid mistakes that are non obvious to those who have less experience or are more specialized, but the days when headhunters used to ring them out of the blue and offer lucrative jobs at better wages and better conditions than their current gig are long past.
The H1-B visa programme is a symptom of what is wrong with the USA, it is a band aid on a bullet wound.
Here in the UK anyone from anywhere in the EU can come and work, no permits required, our island with a native population of around 60 million citizens exists in a labour market of some 450 million citizens, none of whom are more than 48 hours away by road, none of whom need any kind of permits, many of whom come from areas where the cost of living is 25% or less of the UK average. They can commute on a weekly basis or stay for six months or move here, as their whim takes them.
If anyone here in the UK thinks closing borders, opting out of the EU and implementing an H1-B style visa programme is going to bring back the glory days when you could tell the boss to shove it on a Thursday and start and new, better paid job the next Monday is dreaming.
Employers will either shut up shop and move to the European mainland, or go bust. Those jobs that cannot be exported due to the nature of the services, such as domestic plumbers, will find themselves looking for work in an economy where lots of factories closed, jobs went overseas, and most people are too busy struggling to pay off the mortgage to thing about a new bathroom suite and new kitchen. Hard times.
Fifty years ago the UK, and the USA, could have pulled up the drawbridges and gone self sufficient, some things we would have had to do without, bananas, oranges, but everything else we could and did make on these shores. Great, Ferguson and Baird televisions running 425 line UHF stuffed to the gills with Mullard Valves, transistorised stuff was out (hell, the UK basically invented the transistor and gave it to the USA in WW2 to keep it out of the Germans hands) but there wasn't the market for it. The british bike industry could and did make ass kicking 4 cylinder motorcycles that were as good as anything coming out of the Honda factory back then, but there wasn't the market for it, pulling up those drawbridges stops trade in BOTH directions see.
Honda took off when it met the same conditions Triumph had 40 years earlier, when less than 10% of production was for the domestic market. Same goes for Nipponese Victory Company, known to you as JVC, same for Sony, same for Fiat, same for Nokia, same for anything else you can shake a stick at. How about Microsoft for a modern example.
When the rest of the world is playing the global marketplace game then domestic markets and pulling up drawbridges makes you North Korea.
The USA arguably took over the role of world economic and industrial powerhouse from the UK, you may lead us in fashions such as valley girl speak, plastic surgery for the masses and divorce lawyers, but in some things we lead you, if you have the wit to see which way the wind is blowing.
The days of studying engineering in Scotland or mining in Cornwall being sufficient to guarantee you a *good* job anywhere in the world are long gone, and they ain't coming back. I can't speak for Scotland but if you are in Cornwall now unless you want to work six months of the year for the so called tourist trade as a commis chef you don't have many options, certainly none that will land you a good job anywhere on the planet. Doesn't matter how innately talented and brilliant you are, the world renowned centres of excellence such as Dalcoath College (hard rock mining school) are long gone too.
Look at the A380 airbus, a major clusterfuck over two years late, not because this bit was made here and that bit made there, not because of different languages, not even because of different software, but because nobody bothered to make a jig to test fit German built fuselage sections with French built fuselage sections, AT THE FACTORY IN GERMANY, so for two years they shipped bits that needed extensive reworking of the wiring, and the blame was put on incompatible visualization software, not third rate engineering practices. Boeing are celebrating the Airbus cock up, they shouldn't, wait till the Asians start building fuselage the same way they built cars and motorcycles and portable radios.... they have a head start because they have to make far less units per annum to vastly exceed domestic consumption and get into that boom time scenario where most of your production is exported.
The "R" Word.
Recession, not to be confused with a financial recession on the Stock Market, because I can sit in the New York stock exchange and make money trading futures in OLED production in the Far East, but *real* recession, where your labour just isn't in as much demand as it used to be. That is what the USA is experiencing right now, and the UK too. It is a no brainer, spiralling consumer debt just doesn't happen when people are raking in the dough.
I did not adopt a fairly radical "cut my suit according to my cloth" downsizing of my own personal lifestyle, and economy drive on steroids, because I am an eco freak or because I really don't want 55" 1080i screens in every room, an L88 vette in the driveway and a cigarette boat in the river, I did it because they money just ain't there to be had any more, unless I want to go down the suicidal personal debt route, and I just don't see the status quo changing in time to pay off that accrued debt, so it was downsize my lifestyle now, while I still had a choice.
Get out of Dodge? where am I going to go? Where can I go in the EU and compete with workers who are used to getting less than 25% of my wage? Where can I go outside the EU? Australia? Great place to emigrate to in 1970, going there now is like buying MS stock, probably a good bet, but missed the boom years.
Not my fault? Not fair? Not what I want to hear?
Doesn't matter, the world doesn't owe me a living.
USAians, don't look at the H1-B visa programme and complain about companies exploiting american workers, look at the H1-B visa programme and see it for what it is, a warning sign, there is an economic storm coming and lifeboat places are likely to be in short supply, don't wait until everyone else has wet feet before deciding to make your move.