Sun's Latest Follow-The-Leader Project

Thu May 10 11:24:35 -0700 2007
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Sun has a project, "Indiana", which is going to make Solaris more GNU/Linux-like, not just in user experience but also for deeper levels such as system programming and device drivers.  The article that Stephen Shankland wrote at ZDNet brings up things that some might find humorous, besides the interesting project itself.

Back about seventeen years ago, I was deeply into Computer Aided Design and Computer Aided Engineering, and was just getting into all the fun global networks like BITNET, the  ARPANET/Internet, TYMNET, etc. that were humming away at the time (with various gateways between them).  The engineering group I was a member of was going to Sun Sparcstations with a BSD Unix called SunOS on them, instead of PCs running DOS and  a couple trying out Windows 3.

There were many ways the Sun Way was so much cooler than what was going on with our DOS and Windows 3 based i386 and i486 boxes as we moved the more willing users (strangely also the more productive and quick to learn ones) from 1990 to 1992.  Those PCs needed all kinds of optional hardware accessories and software utilities to make them useful, and took a lot of two guy's time to administer.  Contrasted sharply with Sparcstations, right out of the box, purchased with a single part number, the Suns had cool hardware like high res graphics, networking, mouse.  Devices didn't require special jumpers and hairy configuration like the PCs, just plug in the stuff and, zoom, up and running.  A boot PROM  with some nonvolatile RAM that held FORTH firmware and software, modifiable, to diagnose problems, change boot devices and other device parameters and how the OS would see devices on the fly; heck could even freeze the OS and drop down into PROM mode and then start OS again.  The software to run and make the machine go was even better, the SunOS had built in stuff for remote administration (NIS, rsh, rcp, rtar), backup (tar and dump), file sharing (NFS), email (sendmail), graphics and gui (X11R4, OpenLook with Motif) which was exciting to me as part of my job was to procure and install and configure software.  Another part of my job was to customize and create needed integration pieces for all the other in house and client systems we had to work with, and SunOS included a compiler and libraries and the API to the operating system was open and documented.  Not to mention our engineering applications ran twice as fast on the bad boy Sun gear as the fastest of the wimpy clunky PCs.

So I was a Sun fanboy for computing "at work", Sun was blazing the path for what a real "workstation" should be in hardware, firmware, OS and utility software from a one-stop shop.  Totally butt-kicking for the low and midsized tiers of tech computation compared to what IBM, HP, Compaq,  and DEC had going on at the time (we'll talk about NeXT, Apple, SGI at some other time,  different markets for those)

Sun had imitators to flatter them, there was the DEC Vaxstation and DECStation, HP had the Apollo / 3000 series, IBM and Sony and others also made workstations.  Sometimes each of these vendors would make a machine that work outperform a Sun box, but Sun would always jump away from them, and running benchmarks on real world apps that used the whole machine, i.e. more than just CPU and memory cache  with MIPS, FLOPs and such, Sun would invariably take the prize.

Sun grew their product line from  performance technical networked desktop towards the high end of serverdom until they were in 1998 the number one Unix server, THE way (outside of mainframe scale) to run Oracle and business applications and  services.  Sun made standards, they gave the Unix servers of the work NFS, NIS, the RPC system and a host of improvements to Unix, everyone else's Unix would have to have the lines copyright (c) Sun Microsystems, Inc. in various important places.

Also in the late 80s and early 90s, some things were happening elsewhere in the world, that at the time might have seemed minor but would grow so very huge they would threaten the life of Sun (and quite a few others in the IT business).  Stallman and FSF with  dream of free OS including compiler and toolset and support utilities all operating systems need, Linus with Linux.  Stinky ol' segmented x86 and peripherals expanding to where they could do bigger jobs  (even if still retaining some trashy heritage to this day from its past)


Somewhere along the line Sun and other Unix vendors stopped even including the compiler for free, after all, most people didn't use it and those who did could be made to pay thousands.  Problem with that was there was now free tools out there from the FSF and other sources (like replacements for Unix utilities that were sometimes superior to the ones included with Unix, and things like web servers that corporations were finding useful just for internal use only even if they weren't on the Internet in a customer facing manner).  But that was no big deal, after all the GNU compiler (we call gcc now) was free and available and so started to be used first for building those nifty free tools, then do fill in to do customizing since those vendor compilers were so very dang expensive, and pretty soon their were companies with internal applications  and administration tools either fully written or built with gcc/toolset or on handy languages like Perl  built with gcc.

During the dot-com boom Sun had huge demand and profit, but people were buying the Sun name and Sun slacked off innovating.  Around 2002 GNU/Linux and free software could do most of what Unix on server machines could do, and if something could do 85% of the job on hardware that cost 40% as much, something upsetting to the picture was bound to happen.  And developers writing free software and other types of open software could have robust and relatively unencumbered communities, while those in closed source world has to be done  in a very careful and stifling manner with oversight by nervous proprietors (I've been developer, software engineer, and manager in closed source corporations, community there is a whole different ball game, and often is tied to trade shows, schmoozing customers, paid support, etc.)

Sun  lost market share to  GNU/Linux and the hardware it can run on. No surprise, GNU/Linux scales and runs on everything from cell phones to supercomputers, that's a kind of scalability and breadth of  hardware platform  and device support SunOS/Solaris and all other Unix never had and still doesn't have.

Eek, says Sun, what to do?  Now Sun still has  R&D pluck and spirit about it, for that and some other things I admire them even to this day.  But the way they go at that can be awesome for their customers and investors, or just maddening.  They'll sink tens of millions into a "trial balloon" which might get dropped and leave their customers with their metaphorical pants down.  They've been into and out of and into again x86 solaris, for example.  Into and out of and back into GNU/Linux support.  Into and out of alternate architectures (Cobalt MIPS, for instance).  Into and out of thin client push.  Into enterprise storage, check back later.

So what's so funny in this article, which is really about Sun trying to do a FSF and Linuxy type thing maybe a decade and a half too late, a kind of "Woodstock II - build it and they will come",  and maybe just as another one of many multi-million dollar trial balloons that could pop any second if Sun decides results weren't worth effort ?

First, there's the potshot at Linux by the author, implication it might have same source code as Unix (internals of Linux are nothing like Unix, a person who's not a coder but who has technical mindset can even find that much out just seeing block diagrams of internals of Unix in classic old texts.).  Sounds like tired regurgitating of SCOs claims about Linux,   which have been 99% dismissed as nonsense by our courts, and the future of the couple of remaining claims looking very bad indeed, (as SCOs stock prices after this pump and dump ploy), it's metaphorically much like a lingering fart in church after the congregation long left.    Stephen might give some thought that the legal geniuses  at IBM have already taken a long hard look long ago at LInux' guts, and, along with their marketing, sales, and tech jumped on the bandwagon with full commitment and confidence, and are hugely successful with it, and the claims of SCO are crumbling like toy bucket-built sand castles on the beach.

The next funny thing is that Sun would love to have Linux's device support, so much their thinking about "shims" to allow Linux written stuff to be used in the kernel, but of course Solaris isn't free software and almost all of those nifty device thingies are.  And if Sun changes to a free software license, they'll be in danger of losing control of Solaris, and also of Linux developers merely ripping the kewl parts out of the warm bowels of Solaris to sew into Linux and once again leaving Sun with even faster dwindling market share.


Another haha is the mentioning of what I and all too many Solaris consultant/support/employee has to do every freakin' time I go to a huge corporate or government Sun box and log in, the set -o mumbledeefoos because Sun by default uses such a stinky old shell with piss poor support of whatever terminal/console type one has at the moment, that even the freakin backspace keys don't work (and don't even think about touching arrow keys).  And no one wants to change the Sun defaults or install any of the other shells Solaris could run (and for craps sake don't change root's default shell).  See, Sun doesn't have the number of developers to throw at those nice creature comforts as the GNU/Linux people do, never will, so they have to either get those folk working on Solaris problems or pay money to play catchup.  GNU/Linux was passing up the commercial Unix in this regard over eight years ago, polish in terminal/console mode and polish in administration tools, and now they're just left behind.

Which brings us to how the usual Unix utilities work, they mention the directory listing command "ls", how that's different from the way the standard GNU/Linux one is.  See, the big Unix vendors all have slight differences about how many common command work and barf stuff back at you out of the box, and it can get annoying for people like me who work on a Sun Solaris box one week, and AIX or HP/UX or IRIX or Unixware the next.  Some of those have even evolved to putting data on different lines rather than separate columns, nevermind the values and units of what you get back.  Oh sure, there's a way to get older standard behaviour, just let me fumble around in the man pages a few minutes and I'll get back to you with the variable(s) to set or in some cases the path to the flavor of the command (same name different output) you want.  But this fragmentation has made the Unix vendors hurt each other, harder to change, harder to make universal scripts.  In the meantime the GNU/Linux way (and to be fair the open source *BSDs also helped with this) became the de-facto standard - what a guy who wants to learn Unixy-way most likely is going to  do is run GNU/Linux at home on his PC, and that is what becomes the benchmark the other Unix are increasingly being held to, because it's just better, more convenient and better thought out (project with a focus versus 30+ years of add-ons, improvements, experiments by committees at a dozen companies going in a dozen directions trying to all be different and trying to lock in their way of doing things to the exclusion of the others)

Speaking of polish, the install of commercial Unix might be OK if you go with the vendors' box and vendor's options, but it's hell with third party boards and devices.  And adding a disk (or array of disks) or peripheral later can be fiendishly complicated on a commercial Unix, even can be hard to figure out what the new device's name is.  I've actually written scripts for clients just so they can have hope in hell of finding right SCSI lun numbers and fibre HBA WWN out of a pile on Solaris and HP/UX (heh, or even which driver is being used for what)  It's generally easier in the GNU/Linux world (must be, no one's ever called for help with that after I do Linux migration and show them the five minute device-finding spiel)

They want the minds (and manhours) of the Linux developers.  Now what is a hoot is that most of those Linux folk want their hard work to be used far and wide everywhere and anywhere.  Not on one particular vendor's box, and not under the main control of one company, and not tied to the future of one company.    I'm even talking about the paid developers at RedHat and SuSE and Ubuntu and Mandrake, when they write something they know if its good and if it's useful it'll pop up in Debian or Arch or Slack, or it might get improved over there and put back.  Not to mention it's already being used everywhere and anywhere whereas Solaris re-adoption by a majority of the market is still an open question.


My advice to Sun would be to get 100% on the GNU/Linux train, even to contributing fine grained locking and dtrace and other nifty tweaks that give Solaris an edge at the moment over Linux.  Make compatibility libraries and shims for Solaris targeted software and drivers.  Then the Linux developers and the application developers who target Linux firstly  work for you.  Solaris development can be tapered off, no reason to lose customers or the huge application base or compatibility, but grow the GNU/Linux and shrink the Solaris over the next five or more years.  Because the hundreds of millions of dollars a year it takes to have your own Unix is getting too expensive in this fiercely competitive business, and Sun's competitors have already made the choice to do it and Sun is not as big as they are nor have their cash reserves.

dissenting advice for Sun

Thu May 10 13:30:02 -0700 2007
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I think this is a pretty good article, especially the first half that mostly recounts history.   The 20-years-ago deity-like status of Sun's offerings is right on the mark and hard for young'ns to appreciate these days.   People forget that, for a time, there was a category between "micro-computers" and "mainframes" -- the workstation -- and while DEC led off with the J-11 and Apollo raised the question of whether or not there would be a "workstation" category, it was Sun that absolutely nailed it.    And while, when they shifted from 68K series to the RISCy Sparc they would ultimately lose (for now) to Intel, they did give the bletcherous x86 nightmare a good run for its money.   Oh, and, hey:  their best hardware was always rock, freakin' solid (and I mean the casings, the boards, the modular components -- the physical engineering) -- tough-ass, pleasing to work with little boxen at competitive prices.

I don't know how you got through that article without mentionnig NeWS -- Sun's answer to X11 (and, later, extension to X11).   A network-based window system with a postscript interpreter in the server.   We're only just now barely beginning to catch up to its imaging model and clever balance of client-side/app-side functionality (think of a really slick Javascript + SVG only, instead of being confined to a brower window -- it's your entire desktop).   It died a slow, painful death mainly because it was locked-tight proprietary software at a time when X11 was mostly-kinda-sorta open source (and we're all the poorer for that loss).

Sigh.   And your article also underemphasizes how Red Hat bootstrapped itself into "enterprise class" -- basically by eating Sun's lunch.   RH's original "total cost of ownership" arguments weren't particularly riffing on MSFT: they were talking about undercutting Sun.   Sun lost a lot of regular customers during that phase and lost a lot of bids for build-out that just a few years earlier they would have dominated.   It almost looked like it might put them under, for a time.

Sun's culture -- it's R&D-driven culture -- has been the driver of its repeated successes and its robust longevity even in the face of serious challenges.  The company grew straight out of Stanford and Berkeley and was long led by people with an R&D background.   While every other competitor in the field gutted their R&D playgrounds, Sun protected theirs like royalty.   Slow and steady wins the race.  SunOS, Solaris, SPARC, NeWS, NFS, NIS, ..., and Java (and all that flows from Java).  "Give a few good folks time and room enough to think, and at least you'll never lose, even if you don't always win," is the mantra that nobody at Sun has ever quite said out loud, explicitly, but that is expressed over and over in their actions.

I think the article is also flawed when it slags on things like Solaris' ancient shell and its choice of something other than the GNU implementation of other basic utilities.    You miss the points.   First, Solaris has a long-standing reputation as rock-solid, long-term, upward-compatibly stable (compared to other platforms, nothing is absolute).  Second, um, gee: have you tried comparing the source code size and complexity of the Sun tools the GNU tools?   One of these two is a far more stable foundation than the other and, here's a hint, that one isn't GNU.

Towards the "advice" (hey, Schwartz, y' listening?):

Sun has pretty profound strength in intelligently organizing open source processes (thank you Richard Gabriel).   While the GNU/Linux world does make progress and certainly gets most of the press, um, the Java community has been consistently tighter and more effective.    Comparisons are a little bit hard to make because they mostly haven't competed head-to-head but, well, on Java and Java libraries: how many years now has GNU been playing catch-up (and never actually, er, catching up)?   Sun "gets" community development a heck of a lot better than the GNU/Linux crowd.

Oh, right, advice:

Solaris v. Linux, you say?   Are you nuts?   One of these is a pretty darn clean and stable code base that's been skating along smoothly for years and the other is a big ball of undisciplined mud sliding down a mountainside.   The gradual open sourcing of Solaris is a freakin' breath of fresh air for the free software movement.   Don't bank on Linus' continued great success, if you ask me, but go long on Sun.   No kidding.

Oh, right... advice for Sun...... hrm.....  lemme see:

Say, did you hear that Sun is now the first vendor to talk openly about the problem of labor justice in the open source world?   To note that engineering with volunteer labor is unfair and unsustainable and to comment that they plan to help fix that?

Oh, damn, I keep forgetting, I'm supposed to be getting around to telling Sun what I think they should do:

Ok, got it.   Ready?   Hey, Sun:  keep up the good work.   Oh, and, hey, I do have this litte software project cooking for which I need an exit strategy -- well, I'll be in touch.

-t

dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 14:39:52 -0700 2007
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Say, did you hear that Sun is now the first vendor to talk openly about the problem of labor justice in the open source world?   To note that engineering with volunteer labor is unfair and unsustainable and to comment that they plan to help fix that?

Huh? How do they intend to 'fix' what people do with their spare time? That's the same as saying that it is unfair for my buddy who is a mechanic to come over and help me fix my brakes (binders?). Or even better, a bunch of mechanics and engineers build a hobby drag race car on the weekends and compete against pro race teams. Yep, two in a row, he,he.

Maybe they propose a $599 per user tax to be imposed on commercial use of open source software to 'even' the playing field...
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 15:03:54 -0700 2007
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that reminds me, Sun actually provided much needed sales to the folk who were asking $599 (or was it $699) from all Linux users just when they (SCO) needed it for their failing pump and dump scam.
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 15:02:16 -0700 2007
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I know my view of computer happenings 17 years ago is very, very lopsided because from 1990 onward I was transitioning from being engineer/physics focused to, well, mostly general computer geeky even though as a hobby I was into microcomputers in the 70s but very low level stuff.   So I know some big holes and very biased perceptions but it's fun to put the viewpoint down and even more fun to hear what other people make of the time.  Heck, I had never heard of Linux before 1997, sorry I missed out on the first three-quarters of a decade of fun, guys.  But I did know of and use GNU tools and other GNU-built things all that time, kind of weird, huh? 

Didn't mention NeWS because we didn't use it, the application mix we had at the time did better under OW.  I wonder how of NeXTStep's window manager borrowed ideas from NeWS, it too was not X11 based though could be X11 extended and was awesome display postscript system.  My home computer shortly after getting into Suns at work was a NeXTStation.

Yes, RedHat gets big credit for eating into Sun's lunch.   But RedHat is 98% a compilation of other people's good stuff.  Business and marketing wise is how they were the iceberg for the good ship Sun.  And Microsoft gets some credit too with their lame server offerings that almost no one on Unix would consider a moment as a serious replacement. 

Haven't seen the source code for Sun's utilties, even though I downloaded the whole ball o' wax under that non-disclosure in Solaris 8 (aka SunOS 5.8, aka Solaris 2.8) days, I was interested in kernel plumbing at the time.  Not as squeaky clean then (2000?) in there as some would imagine, years o' cruft in some places was more like it, and we can't discuss it because it would violate NDA unlike nifty GNU/Linux stuff for which Linus *dares* you to "show me the code" if you can do it better or safer.   But back to size of GNU code vs. Sun for utilties the point is that getting some neat features in the GNU stuff, which by the way was rock solid for me and plenty of other admins doing what I was doing for similar reasons, started to open people's minds that maybe there was something out their bigger than any one proprietary company could do, and another model for making innovative computer software.  I would expect the GNU stuff to be bigger because it did more that's why I was using it!

The old and inconvenient stuff still in solaris doesn't have anything to do with being stable or backwards compatible.  It can still be there but not as how the admin or user does daily business. Sun really hasn't put time and effort into it  but now GNU/Linux is making them finally start to think about lighting a fire under their own collective lazy keisters. 

And Solaris' stability is sometime exaggerated, ever look through those monster patch sets and some of those are for hideous show-stoppers that some poor ol' bastard had his beloved Sun box puke all over him.  I can tell you I've seen Sun boxes panic and dump core with various applications that had to fixed by a combination of vendor and Sun's own patches.  Not a frequent occurrence, once at year among a dozen clients?   Still not up to those decades-old mainframe OS though getting closer by the year, and maybe not entirely Sun's fault because the big bad enterprise vendors get into the kernel's hair  (Veritas, Oracle)

It is fun to write Sun some advice here, because there actually is a chance one of those big wigs might actually catch wind of it.  Bruce has handed the keys and codes of strategic blog-WMD to some cranky, grumpy disgruntled geeks with axes to grind, skeletons of bones to pick and rants to throw. Oh my!

GNU does plenty other than Java very well, so I'm not too worried if their Java projects take off or not or if Sun's does better.  I'd be more concerned if I were a Sun shareholder if Sun can finally come up with a way to make money off of Java,  for business use  of java/j2ee they don't have the lion's share of the market.   I think the future could be a JVM or  it but with other languages than Java running on it.  Maybe even C# (ooo, did Rubycodez actually say a Microsoft created thing could be any good or use?), cause Java is just warmed over 1980's c++  procedural/semi-OO wares.  But that's just me talking trash and speculating.

Labor justice for open source?  Much of the labor is paid, others do it for love, some of those might like a bounty system but they'll keep doing it anyway.  Not unfair, it's like making art with worldwide recognition and plus people use it to boot.

How about labor justice for proprietary workers first? Could write for awhile about Sun's *unjust* labor practices for which they got into trouble during the post dot-com era, kind of falls in line with some other things we talk about here on technocrat, like underpaid H1B and laying off U.S. workers to hire H1B and failure to provide public notice of jobs.   Ah well, they probably learned their lesson.

Funny how this "undisiplined pile of mud" as you call it is increasingly the vendor-preferred platform of choice for the big enterprise software vendors.  Redhat servers I've set up have been running for years now, and the 2.6 kernel Redhat puts into 4.0 hasn't exploded on me in the past three years.   Who has more testers, Sun or Linus, I wonder?   IBM is running it on their freakin mainframes, for pete's sake, can't be all that shaky.  So Linux comes unglued someday, so what, someone else can fork and fix it, maybe even IBM does.  But anyone could, that's the point and beauty of it.

Yeah, that Sun hardware is very good, some other alternatives for Linux are built just as well, and some not.  Some of Sun's low end servers have quality control issues, but that's in the nonredundant realm where what they're competing against is really shoddy.

Yes, OpenSolaris and Solaris will be cool technologies to watch over the next three years (so will DragonFly BSD, thought I'd just throw that in there as it is very innovative) and I'll be right their with you because it's part of my job to work with Sun gear and Sun OS.  But that means there won't be any fooling me with talk of "legendary stability" and 100% uptime, because my GNU/Linux server-grade boxes at clients are doing exactly as well in that area as Solaris.



dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 15:02:45 -0700 2007
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Sorry, no.

[Due to some NDA stuff, I have to be intentionally vague here, sorry.]

Two weeks ago I was shifted to a new project for a major customer.  It will be rolled out nationally (U.S.) and support more than 20 million customers on a 24x7x365 basis.

The hardware (computing side) consists of 531 (I counted) IBM HS21 blades running RHEL, 1 HP system running Red Hat for IA-64 and Oracle, and one Sun SPARC box running Solaris 9.

Until I arrived, for over a year, the project was run without a dedicated Unix/Linux admin.  Everyone involved was focused on the application.  Unsurprisingly, it all just worked (the Linux side, that is).

Linux is, when properly configured, as rock solid stable as anything Sun has.  There are only two issues I bumped into that I would like to see changed.

1. GNU ping to have a flag to make it work like Solaris ping.  Return "Host <hostname> is Alive!", not round-trip-times.

2. Red Hat can't, for some ungodly reason, enforce strict passwords out of the box.  PAM can *complain*, but will still let you use a crappy password.  You need a third-party PAM module to get it to enforce things.  Go figure.  It is GPLv2, and Red Hat will point you to it, but they don't include it.

Sun needs to focus on what Sun does best -- killer hardware & killer service.  The more they embrace GNU and the GPL, the better their chances will be.
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 17:18:36 -0700 2007
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Addenda:  The Oracle database really isn't Oracle.  It is from a company called "Times Ten", which was bought by Oracle.  The actual database engine that handles the system authentication of those 20+ million users is Postgres.

And for you MySQL fans, it is also heavily used in the system.  Both are, in most cases, more than equal to any task the "big boys" are asked to do.

Everything is managed via OpenSSH and net-snmpd and BIND 9 permeates the entire system, from client-access points to the core.

All hail Open Source!
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 23:06:30 -0700 2007
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Postgresql is a looming threat for Oracle.  That's not the purpose or focus of the project, but even in the past three years its amazing the features added to Postgresql, and the roadmap looks good to getting Full DBMS Superpowers (clustering and multiple HA failover) in another few years.  Then Postgresql will be poised to do to Oracle what GNU/Linux did to Unix(tm).  Can't wait, I'm sick of Oracle, and I would feel so very much better about the Unix -> Linix migrations I do without having to put that bloated, hard-to-tune, never-the-same-patches-twice 80s indexing technology pigware on one more machine.
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 15:28:46 -0700 2007
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Say, did you hear that Sun is now the first vendor to talk openly about the problem of labor justice in the open source world?

All right, Tom. I can't let this one by.

There have been a number of people who were happy to give you money for creating Open Source code. You took the money of more than one of them. Unfortunately, you did not work with any of them for very long. You have a recurring pattern of becoming extremely abusive toward the people who try to help you. You convince them utterly that it is a really bad idea to be involved with you in any fashion.

The list of innocent and well-meaning people who tried sincerely to help you and got burned includes, at a minimum, Mike Tiemann, Mark Shuttleworth, Richard Stallman, and me. While I was trying to get you help in 2002, you sent Tiemann, myself, and a number of public lists a loony apparent suicide note. Tiemann was especially annoyed with me for involving him with a potentially violent nutcase. You managed to burn your bridges with Shuttleworth in 2005. More recently it was Stallman.

Your problems are either a health issue or your own fault, not some labor injustice issue in Open Source. I am receptive to the proposition that society should protect sick people more than it does, especially sick people who are sole proprietors or unemployed. But don't blame it on Open Source.

Bruce

dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 17:00:13 -0700 2007
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Oh, Bruce, please pull up yr trousers while I try to ack where you are right and, quite appropriately, beat you with a stick where you are wrong.   

There have been a number of people happy to give me money for creating Open Source code (and, I'd prefer we say, free software).   Absolutely true.   I'm grateful for that.

You say I have a pattern of of becoming extremely abusive toward the people who try to help me.   You are a person who gave me substantial help at various times and you are a person who wound up feeling abused.  I turn away from that with horror and shock and express my great sorrow.   What can I usefully and productively say, here, besides that I am consistent in my belief that substantial miscommunications have occurred.   I am certainly a fan of vigorous debate and wars of words among friends -- and I find no cause for shame in that -- but in some cases, certainly, this attitude of mine has been received in an unintended spirit.   I am sorry you feel bitter.

Since they are not participating in this thread, it is a bit unfair to take up Tiemann, Shuttleworth, and Stallman here -- but let us tread a bit into this:  I did and still do consider some of Tiemann's and Shuttleworth's business conduct unethical and irresponsible.   If you would ever like to discuss why, I'd be happy to oblige.  I also consider Tiemann and understand, by reputation among trusted intermediaries, both Tiemann and Shuttleworth to be genuinely warm-hearted and (as you say) well-intentioned people.  I find it difficult to reconcile those two views of them with my personal experiences of them but not impossible.   My main complaint with both is, roughly, that they haven't exhibited in my interactions with them the kind of intellectual rigour of which I think both are capable which might better align their intentions with their actions in business.   At the same time, though you have apparently overlooked it, I have praised both for achievements I thought were under-appreciated.    Stallman is a different case and at least as difficult.   I think he made some profound errors and compromises (under pressure from, for example, Tiemann's Cygnus) in the direction of the GNU project -- to the detriment of software freedom.  As you also know, I have deep and irreconcilable differences with him on some political matters outside of software, most particularly his stated opinions about sexual interaction between adults and children.   So it goes.

Now, as for labor justice and "my problems" -- I think your bitterness towards me is causing you to overstep.   You presume far too much to think I am projecting my own financial challenges more broadly.   You don't get it -- fine.   Studies have shown, at least tentativey, that a great deal of the revenues enjoyed by the open source industry are derived from value created by directed volunteerism.  What was once a simple political movement to promote software freedom has become a political movement for the benefit of a few commercial interests.  I know you are not so deeply steeped in CS but, if we were to sit down and go over it, you could see that this shift in emphasis has had profound effect on the shape of the most widely used software stacks, too.   In any event, my comment about labor justice was just repeating a comment made at O'Reilly's latest conference, by a rep. of Sun, that the current system is unsustainable.   Do you really disagree that if people are doing commercially valuable work they should expect to be paid? 

And, suicide:  Yup.  Round-about 2002 I gave it some serious consideration.  It was a rational contemplation given the absurdity of how I was being treated.  Being a fairly even-keeled person, I ultimately found I didn't really have the stomach for it and so my contemplation of the conclusion that it was the only rational conclusion came out bitterly, in a cry-for-help sort of way -- which I guess in your view is "loony".    So, there you go: yes, I seriously thought about it.   Yes, I mentioned it to you and a few others.   Thank you so much for bringing it up here -- I'm sure you've proved whatever point you wanted to make.

Oh, and, "But don't blame it on Open Source"?   By all means, a brand in which you have interest is more important than, well, just about anything, no?

-t
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 17:20:07 -0700 2007
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Your belief that the system is unsustainable is connected with your belief that the code is crafted by unpaid volunteers. This ignores the real economic revolution of Open Source, which is that the majority of those programmers are now paid, but do not work for software companies. A great many of them are in user companies whose profit center is something other than software. Those companies realize savings by distributing the cost and risk of non-differentiating software development through the Open Source process. Those of us who have tried to hire an Open Source developer lately find that they are difficult to get and demand high salaries.

If you would like anyone to believe the system is unsustainable, I think it's necessary for you to show why it hasn't failed already. It's been a long time, now.

And yes, there are companies that take advantage. A company will take advantage wherever a buck can be made by doing so. This is unfortunate but does not taint the social merit of Open Source.

So, I do not see this as an issue of the greater community at all - I believe it to be unusual to see a developer of your qualification who isn't making a good living while producing Free Software today, if that developer desires to do so. Perhaps if you insisted on less "intellectual rigor" among your employers, you'd get along with them.

Bruce

dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 17:29:08 -0700 2007
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Those of us who have tried to hire an Open Source developer lately find that they are difficult to get and demand high salaries.

Now this is interesting to me, mainly because I know a whole lot of C++ and other outdated skills engineers who lost their homes in the last 6 years during the .com meltdown.

Are the cost savings in Open Source enough to be worth training a few new folks, perhaps?  If so, there's a bunch of ex-Microsofties in the WashTech union who seem to be having a problem finding steady work (let alone the $100,000/year jobs Bill Gates claimed before Congress were available in this field), and who would be glad for the chance to retrain.

dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 20:41:18 -0700 2007
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Are the cost savings in Open Source enough to be worth training a few new folks, perhaps?

The Open Source developers are self-starters. That is one reason that they are valuable. They learned the projects they were interested in on their own and became visibly useful on those projects. They built a relationship with the companies that were interested in those projects. When they got hired, they were already a known quantity. You could look at the list archives and see how they interacted with their team. You could browse their source code and see if they were good at what they did.

Folks who need training should dumpster dive an old PC and put Linux on it, and dig in. Folks who need a class to learn got ruined by their schools, the poor guys, and fewer of them will make the cut.

Sourcelabs is hiring, in Seattle. But we want folks who have already bootstrapped themselves into credibility on Open Source projects in our market.

Bruce

dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 21:17:14 -0700 2007
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Wow. 

No, seriously, wow.

You're turning away skilled programmers and looking instead for people who did unpaid work to establish social status in projects that collect free labor.

Well, good for you.

-t
dissenting advice for Sun
Fri May 11 07:12:02 -0700 2007
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I get it, if open source is winnie-the-pooh land, you're Eeyore and you've lost your tail.

why do you keep braying about open source workers being unpaid?  if most of them ARE paid.  I'm beginning to think you worked on open source projects but didn't get paid.  You did it for fun and the love of it for awhile but then wanted someone to pay $$$ for your efforts, no one did and nows it's "eeeeeYawwwww".  Is that it?

Just trying to help nail your tail back on.....


Call me Christopher Robin, standing ready and willing with 25 lbs. sledge and nine inch nail
dissenting advice for Sun
Fri May 11 10:48:57 -0700 2007
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Cute, but, no, that's not quite it, although thanks for the offer of the tail.

How many open source developers do you think are paid for their work on open source projects?   Nobody is entirely certain -- people are only beginning to study it.  The figures I've seen tossed around are just a bit more than 50% -- meaning that just a bit less than 50% aren't paid for this work.   Wanna go with that?  We could guess 60/40, if you like.   Even 80/20 is plenty to show the problem.

That "free" labor -- that 20% or more -- is a rival service.   Each "unit" of labor can only be spent once.  If it is going into project A then, by definition it isn't going into project B, so A and B compete for this labor: the labor is a rival resource.   In the case at hand, we're talking about quite skilled labor that, when directed to markets, demands a pretty good price.   Bruce even said so, here: his firm is having trouble hiring -- demand is exceeding supply -- there's upward pressure on the price of that labor.  On top of that, the labor we're talking about is flexible: it can be spent on open source, sure, but it can also be spent on other things.

How high do you think the price for that labor has to be get before that supply of "free" 20% (or 40% or more)  labor takes a walk?   Finds a better deal elsewhere?   Leaves our GNU/Linux vendors stuck up a pole, facing a sudden 20%, 40% or more inflation in their costs?   That makes it awefully fanciful to project out planning of future projects and lifetime costs of build-outs that use open source.

How are customers supposed to signal that 20%+ of "free" labor?  How do customers express what they value in software?   If the price of software includes all of the labor costs then you know that if you later demand feature X that your vendor can turn around and offer some of the price you've paid to buy labor to implement X.   On the other hand, if you're riding on free labor in the current climate, and you demand feature X, your hope is suddenly that "Gee, I hope some people will find that interesting enough to want to pitch in."

See the difference in risk profile there?   We have to expect, in the current system, open source development costs to be highly volatile in the long run and open source labor to be sluggish, at best, in responding to market needs.  That's why some firms are beginning to treat the current system of volunteerism as commercially unsustainable.

What makes this not only unsustainable but unfair is how vendors have been mitigating the risks.   If you're a vendor and you want to keep that labor around without paying for it, and you want to make sure you can direct it to respond to your customers' demands, then you go into the marketing business:  you start marketing participation in your open source projects like a product -- selling people on the idea that they should pick the opportunity to volunteer for your project rather than do something else.   In our industry, at this time, that marketing has adopted the language of values and ethics.   It promotes specific behaviors for would-be volunteers -- behaviors that help maintain commercially valuable projects in stable, directable form with a consistent supply of free labor.   The "sleezy" thing -- the unfair thing -- is that because they don't want to pay people to adopt these behaviors they need some other selling point, and they reach for the language of morality.  

Now, I have to laugh to avoid crying when Red Hat compares itself to Gandhi or Google compares itself to the Nobel committee -- those are just run of the mill obscenities.   What really gets my goat, though, is watching younger programmers grow up in this climate.   They're being given some pretty bad lessons in software architecture, engineering practices, and community values.   They're being taught a pretty bad lesson about how to price their own labor.

-t

dissenting advice for Sun - I'll stop coding when you pry the keyboard from my dead fingers!

Fri May 11 13:46:54 -0700 2007
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but the hot-in-business open source projects have corporations contributing (or outright buying them), I just don't see the risk to say the Linux kernel or MySQL or Apache or JBoss.  And the thing about business is, even if the core innovators of important-to-business open source all got run over by a bus, you'd have a few years to choose something else - Redhat/Ubuntu/Mandrake/SuSE would still have the support centers, patches would be made, the stuff would still run, forums of users would still be there.  And the source and ability to make a project of it is still there, unlike proprietary stuff of a flopping company which could get stuck in the limbo of courts.

So there's more projects than workers, that's alright, that's just as much of the open source project pruning process as abandonware and suckware and competition-winner-take-most.  I don't believe for one second that hordes of young (or old) people are being brainwashed to spend their spare time on open source projects with moral arguments, we (old farts like me and those young-uns) do it for fun and would be puttering on our computers anyway creating stuff with or without the existence of open source.  You know how I know that?  Because before I was a teenager I was already paying money for proprietary assemblers and language compilers (and electronic components for projects/upgrades/mods to computers)! YOU CAN"T STOP ME from puttering with computers including writing code!  It's an obsession!  I'd be doing it if Microsoft Windows were all that was! 

And you're going to cry for me or some young person who is like I was but now has this awesome open source so he can play with three dozen languages, multiple OS, middleware, databases, multimedia, signal processing that's an apt-get or yum away?.   Sheez, we're pigs with a french buffet dumped on a mountain of shit.  We're so freepin happy we're whistling zippidy-do-dah out our bungholes.  Why aren't you happy, Thomas?
dissenting advice for Sun - I'll stop coding when you pry the keyboard from my dead fingers!
Sat May 12 06:59:22 -0700 2007
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but the hot-in-business open source projects have corporations contributing (or outright buying them), I just don't see the risk to say the Linux kernel or MySQL or Apache or JBoss.  And the thing about business is, even if the core innovators of important-to-business open source all got run over by a bus, you'd have a few years to choose something else - Redhat/Ubuntu/Mandrake/SuSE would still have the support centers, patches would be made, the stuff would still run, forums of users would still be there.  And the source and ability to make a project of it is still there, unlike proprietary stuff of a flopping company which could get stuck in the limbo of courts.

A few projects are pretty well secured by corporate contributions, yes, I agree.  The more of that that happens, the better off they are and the less pressure there will be on "the community at large" to be the goto-guy for gratis R&D and upstream support.   So, I look at something like Launchpad (Canonical), and I think "that's entirely the wrong direction."   It's all the more "the wrong direction" when, along with the attractive nuisance infrastructure, it comes with a whole series of normative pronouncements about community membership -- that's religion, not commerce.   On this same page, you can find similar corporate-driven moralizing from Perens who, in hiring, is uninterested in skilled programmers who have not already tithed to the church of open source and who will be judged by their conformance to his choice of speech codes. 

Meanwhile, the numbers aren't in.  Yes, sure, some projects are closer to being purely corporate already, others aren't.  Look at a complete product -- say RHEL -- and start estimating your numbers for that.   SEC filings containing forward looking statements from all of these corps always include, in the enumeration of risks, dependence on the continued good will of "the community".   They ain't kidding.   What I'm suggesting is that we can begin to measure that risk in dollars: how much does a competitor have to spend per head to "take over" the community?   Obviously the answer depends on how they go about it but, from here, it doesn't look like much -- beating a $0 wage isn't that hard.

I don't believe for one second that hordes of young (or old) people are being brainwashed to spend their spare time on open source projects with moral arguments,

I'm not sure what "brainwashed" means.   I'm sure that I see corps and luminaries  making lots of moralistic pronouncements to the press and in community forums about the goals, the form, and the function of open source projects -- telling people how to behave and, as their excuse for making such statements, citing moral principles.   At the end of the day though, the business objective is to collect gratis labor.   This is offensive in the extreme and all the more so when you hear wannabe newbies parroting this language.

we (old farts like me and those young-uns) do it for fun and would be puttering on our computers anyway creating stuff with or without the existence of open source.

That's right.  There's a lot of "that kind of energy" out there.   Always has been and, hopefully, always will be.   Now, I've got stories, and Wozniak has stories, and maybe even you have stories about how we who had that energy were treated by corps a few decades ago, before any of this "open source" stuff existed.   Back then, corps gave us free parts and free manuals.   They gave us jobs which were light on duties and heavy on opportunities to learn.   Heck, they would even take a few of our hard-earned dollars in trade for assemblers, compiler, or build-you-own-______ kits.    What didn't they do?   They didn't turn to the kids to build their damn products.   They didn't promote anti-capitalist social norms like an expectation that, if you want a job, you have to start working gratis first.

You say "you'd be doing it if Microsoft Windows were all that was" and, you didn't mean to, but you make my point:  behind the moralizing, economics dominate.  Hoi poloi will follow gradients of opportunity minus costs.   I'm really struck, lately, how by putting a quite small amount of money-per-head on the table, Google (with SoC), is able to extract quite a large number of rearrangements, accomodations, disclosures, and reallocations of effort both internally to projects and, more significantly, away from projects to operation of SoC rules of participation.   They are very careful, here, to not do this as an overt challenge to the open source hegemony (they're "here to help") but the interesting thing to me is that, with just a little bit of money on the table, a lot of people jump.   Perens reports that he's having trouble hiring -- well, that may be but examples like SoC also suggest that the community is, by in large, starved for cash.

And you're going to cry for me or some young person who is like I was but now has this awesome open source so he can play with three dozen languages, multiple OS, middleware, databases, multimedia, signal processing that's an apt-get or yum away?.   Sheez, we're pigs with a french buffet dumped on a mountain of shit.  We're so freepin happy we're whistling zippidy-do-dah out our bungholes.  Why aren't you happy, Thomas?

Partly because I'm pretty underwhelmed by the quality of the toybox here, especially given the apparent numbr of labor-hours that went into it.   To describe this as a "french buffet," is, I think, a deep insult to French cuisine.

In a way, this relates a bit to the difference between how corps treated young people before open source compared to how they treat them after.   Back in the day, if a corp chose to help a student or a hobbiest, they proudly gave them valuable surplus, privileged access, and quality mentorship.   Nowadays, they give the community steaming piles of bloated, unfinished, buggy, unprincipled, intractable, unmaintainable, poorly documented crap -- and exercise their bully pulpit to exhort folks to create more of the same as the toll for the golden shining road to heroism, community, and career development.

Finally, who says I'm not happy?   Oh, to be sure, I don't happen to believe that anyone is in some unitary sense simply "happy" or "unhappy".    I'm a bit more Taoist than that -- I think "why aren't you happy" is a metaphysically confused question.    But, if your image of me is of some bitter old crank whose sole pleasure in life is cranking out a series of bitter polemics then I wonder if the real issue isn't that we basically speak slightly different dialects of english.

-t
dissenting advice for Sun - I'll stop coding when you pry the keyboard from my dead fingers!
Sat May 12 12:43:45 -0700 2007
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poorly engineered, bad quality a new problem?  Not only has it happened over the years with closed source, and with good closed source made effectively bad by poor support or abandonment (like Sun's trial balloons such a x86 solaris in the mid 90s), it has even happened in the open source pushed by the big Unix vendors.  Like that bloated, cruft, poor modular separation of function turd pile called sendmail, still your SMTP engine of default and of choice on Solaris.  And some other packages like it, that have to do with Unix origins, the Unix toybox also has high and low quality items it in just as the open source OS/distro one does.

Maybe you should just go to mainframe OS if you really want to avoid that kind of problem, but I think you're really just putting on rose colored glasses when you look at what comes out of your beloved vendor and then take them off when dealing with Linux/FSF.  The truth is open source has the hugest staffed QA department on the planet and the problems are more well known, when in the closed source world its hush hush don't worry the executives and stockholders and stock market and clients.
How long did it take Sun to make a true clean 64 bit OS, after introducing a 64 bit OS, with no hidden 32 bit gotchas (or *snigger* true clean 64 bit PROM to go with them?).  I know that answer because of problems I've hit myself, and it's more than a decade! And there's plenty more examples where that came from for any Unix(tm) vendor you care to name.  So Sun and IBM and HP and friends can push half baked crap out the door just as well as any enthusiastic bunch of young-uns!

dissenting advice for Sun - I'll stop coding when you pry the keyboard from my dead fingers!
Sat May 12 13:20:53 -0700 2007
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Context is everything.   Unix coming out of the 70s and into the 80s was a story of vast improvement through simplification and, yes, "open source practices".  It was software designed to be implemented by, maintained by, and extended by small groups acting autonomously -- it benefited when these various self sufficient groups shared successes with one another.    The same R&D culture that gave us Unix later, in its death gasps, and rather pointedly, gave us the starkly minimalist Plan 9 ("You see?  You're stupid minds!  Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!").

The "open source" world did a pretty good job of substituting for Unix in the product space but it went the wrong way, technology-wise, retreating from what had been improved in engineering practices and making up the gap with an excess of poorly managed free labor.   For all of its gratis contributions, if you try comparing the efficiency of today's open source world to the past I think its very clear there's a huge loss of efficiency, by this time deeply reflected in the tractability of the code base.

It's funny that you pick on Sendmail.   You forget history, I suspect.   It succeeded at vastly simplifying email infrastructure when it was created -- though the inter-network problems it solved then are largely gone.   Email came to be "the killer app" of the 90s largely thanks to sendmail.   Yes, sure, for many installs today it's more optimal to spend LOCs in an MTA differently.   And yes, meanwhile, sendmail itself has evolved into a far more sophisticated beast -- mostly well outside of the popular "open source practices" and, instead, squarely on the basis of paid labor (alas, you'll have to pay a licensing fee for some of the more interesting bits).

So Sun and IBM and HP and friends can push half baked crap out the door just as well as any enthusiastic bunch of young-uns!

Absolutely.  And they can do so far more efficiently -- measured in labor hours per product -- and within a capitalist framework of actually paying pretty much all of the coder's along the way.   Those young-uns, left unmolested, would have better things to do.

-t
dissenting advice for Sun
Sat May 12 13:14:54 -0700 2007
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The Open Source developers are self-starters. That is one reason that they are valuable. They learned the projects they were interested in on their own and became visibly useful on those projects.  They built a relationship with the companies that were interested in those projects. When they got hired, they were already a known quantity. You could look at the list archives and see how they interacted with their team. You could browse their source code and see if they were good at what they did.

So, basically, to get a job in open source software, you have to be rich enough to first donate hundreds of hours of time in open source software.

I just wanted to clear that up- that Open Source isn't really that much better than Closed Source when it comes to treating people as PEOPLE, rather than as vaulable resources that have to be already known quantities before they can get hired.

It was always the one hole in the Hacker's Ethic- we're perfectly willing to judge you on talent alone, but we won't pay you enough to actually find even a studio apartment in any city in the nation until you've proven that talent.  I just finished reading Strapped, it seems to be the story of my generation and the one that comes after me.  And in the mean time, the shortage shouters keep claiming they can't find good talent, because they're completely unwilling to provide a path for that good talent to get started.

If all you ever hire are self-starters, then I'd say it's your own darned fault for not being able to find enough labor; don't come crying to the taxpayer for more H-1b visas because YOU aren't willing to actually invest in the people we have in society.  When was the last time Sourcelabs actually say, donated teacher time and a lab of Linux boxen to a high school?
dissenting advice for Sun
Sat May 12 13:30:18 -0700 2007
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Hey, Pres, careful there.   First, yr going up against Bruce Perens(TM) who comes armed with his very own honorary Blue Helmet.   I'm not sure you or I are actually qualified to speak with him, other than in a praising way.   Second, don't reduce it all to a demand for a few computers to high schools -- that's chump change, not structural form, and to boot: it'll probably wind up costing the schools more than it helps them.

-t
dissenting advice for Sun
Sat May 12 13:41:09 -0700 2007
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My point is this- if you're not interested in helping your local community and local economy- at least be honest about it and say so.  Don't just cry "we can't find any talent"- talent in computer software is CREATED, not grown.  Why should anybody work in an industry that just treats people like so much replaceable garbage, to be thrown out at the whim of the boss?

I'm already telling young kids not to go into computer science; there aren't enough good employers to outweigh the bad ones.  Do something else to make a living- then offer your talents in computer programming as an ADDITION to your regular job.

There are tons of talented programmers out there who don't have two dimes to rub together; and I don't blame them for not joining in on Open Source projects when they can't even put food on the table.
dissenting advice for Sun
Sat May 12 14:52:53 -0700 2007
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I have to abandon the voice of sarcasm and acknowledge plainy that we agree.

First, CS (or any "highly skilled" profession) is highly contingent on externalities.  A kid isn't complete, in the usually-unrealizable-but-ever-approximatable ideal unless they have good fallbacks on the really, really fundamental.   If you're able-bodied, at least, you can (given good pedagogy) get work on a road crew, climb a construction lattice of union positions, work as a handy-person or plumber, take in laundry, sell good burritos, serve as a hand on a ranch, drive a taxi, work in an office, etc.   There are good arguments that, at today's prices, college degrees in general (nevermind CS degrees) are a financially poor investment -- you can get a better return working minimum wage for those years.

And yes, engineering talent in general -- not just software engineering talent -- is CREATED.   It doesn't flow from a magic cauldron.  And if you want to avoid long-term disasters (like New Orleans), engineering talent comes with a heapin' helpin' of steeping youngsters in the social responsibility to not simply follow gradients of fashion and (in spite of open source) easy money.  (It's an separate conversation but I would hold that you can't be a good engineer unless you have a professional ethics that prepares you to be as effective a dissident as you can manage.)

With "open source" we threw open the doors and got many, many more in the business (paid or not) of developing software.   That's potentially great but, in practice, rather problematic.   It doesn't help when the community leadership for this new group is driven so polemically and without much engineering awareness as we see from open source thought leaders.   It's a big distortion of what is sustainable and the sooner it crashes, the less hard that crash will be.  In burbling about basic issues like the monetization of labor (in rather banal capitalist terms) -- my hope is to help guide that crash towards a soft landing.

Hey, didn't this (larger than here) thread start, way back when, with a bunch of much narrower precepts about "software freedom"?   "Open source," as currently conceived, may be a lousy elaboration of those original starting points but that's no reason to not return to them and restart thinking through what they mean in practice.....

-t
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 18:00:18 -0700 2007
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If you would like anyone to believe the system is unsustainable, I think it's necessary for you to show why it hasn't failed already. It's been a long time, now.

You say it yourself.  It's been a long time now.  It has failed.   It failed to catch up to even one commercial Java effort.   It failed to win the desktop.  It succeeded in becoming the leading platform for proprietary software in the form network appliances and closely-held web applications.  It has failed to seize the lead in next-generation technologies.   It has utterly failed to promote software freedom other than in the narrow senses of breaking Sun and MSFT hegemony (in favor of other proprietary systems) and free-as-in-beer.   "You guys" screwed the pooch.

-t
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 18:36:10 -0700 2007
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you weren't talking to me in this part of the thread but this looks like juicy stuff for discussion

Open source has failed to "catch up" even one commercial java effort?  Most commercial Java is running closed source commerical applications, certainly we could say dollar wise it maybe hasn't caught up.  But use?  Apache servers, GNU/Linux distros out the wazzoo, gcc compiler to name a few aren't as big as a big java application?

Open source has "failed to win the desktop"? It's winning more and more each year, and governments are standardizing on it.   And let's talk about the Sun Java Desktop which Sun would love to become the desktop of the future.  What is it?  First of all, it mostly ain't java, and what it is is Gnome. Sun's been trying to get some desktop for years, but they're a bit behind the open source world.  So now they'll jack some Gnome and maybe they'll have some success.  If that doesn't work they could always jack some KDE and maybe call it the Sun Java2 Desktop.

It has failed to seize the lead in next-generation technologies?     Like Solaris has siezed the lead with the hot technologies such as wireless or laptop or pda or bluetooth or video capture  support?

I have software freedom for my day to day tasks (some of it even thanks to Sun's open source work) and on my servers running  my domains.  No failure indicated or seen here.  And I've installed free software even on windows machines and even on Solaris machines.  The stuff is really growing in use.

If open source is failing why is Sun so desperate to get on board and to get the kind of community the huge open source project have?


dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 19:13:23 -0700 2007
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Open source has failed to "catch up" even one commercial java effort?  Most commercial Java is running closed source commerical applications, certainly we could say dollar wise it maybe hasn't caught up.  But use?  Apache servers, GNU/Linux distros out the wazzoo, gcc compiler to name a few aren't as big as a big java application?


That's right. "Isn't as big."    Low-level system software for servers such as you name became commercially "irrelvant" (as Pike put it) -- it transitioned into a commodity.   There was a hic-up, though, about platforms: an x86 version was needed.  Enter Linus but it's no big deal, really.    Now, on the other hand, what's the bigger driver of financial markets, of new enterprise apps, etc?  Hey, Java!

You can make your case stronger, though.   Tell me to prove that PHP is no big deal and, well, I have to concede on that one (but only a little).   A fairly yawn-inspiring, industry-shrinking commodification of the low-level parts of the stack gave some open source plays like PHP a head start and that (and a few similar web service technologies) enabled a lot of web-service start-ups.  Start-up costs for such companies fell rather dramatically -- a big win, in some sense.   Small problem, though: the "killer apps" that made these start-ups: none of them are open source.   The commodified low-level systems software plus a little bit of framework stuff like PHP has added up to ..... an important platform for proprietary software.

Open source has "failed to win the desktop"? It's winning more and more each year, and governments are standardizing on it.   And let's talk about the Sun Java Desktop which Sun would love to become the desktop of the future.

If the commercial signficance of Java hinged on the success and significance of Java on the desktop that would be an interesting conversation but it doesn't so it isn't.

It has failed to seize the lead in next-generation technologies?     Like Solaris has siezed the lead with the hot technologies such as wireless or laptop or pda or bluetooth or video capture  support?

I didn't mean "next-generation device drivers" -- I meant foundational stuff like bleeding edge high level language VMs.

I have software freedom for my day to day tasks (some of it even thanks to Sun's open source work) and on my servers running  my domains.  No failure indicated or seen here.  And I've installed free software even on windows machines and even on Solaris machines.  The stuff is really growing in use.

You are stochastically an outlier there which is rather disappointing if we add up the number of labor hours that got even you that far.

If open source is failing why is Sun so desperate to get on board and to get the kind of community the huge open source project have?


They already have a huge open-source pracrtices community, they know how to manage it better than the GNU/Linux industry does, and they're looking to grow.

-t

dissenting advice for Sun - my I'm long winded today, what's up with that?

Thu May 10 22:59:32 -0700 2007
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Don't see any problem with open source getting mashed with closed source to commodify web servers. Open source is getting used to build valuable things, from a browser that's a threat to IE to the plumbing of the internet.  The Cause of open source still grows with that, and from that prestige open source gets pushed into more visible and important roles. 

Let's talk about those new enterprise and financial markets that Java is driving.  Problem is that it's not Sun's J2EE, its BEA and Websphere and JBoss and Oracle.  Sun can't give their J2EE stuff away.  Sun  can't figure out how to make money on J2EE or Java, been a huge problem for a decade and in last three years they keep making noise that they're going to figure it out.  Thus far java is a money sinkhole for Sun, as a lot of other Sun software is.  In my opinion they should just dump Java, forget about it, more money in services. Let the open source community build some things of value with it.  Let proprietary vendors continue to do build things of value with it.  See which the world chooses.

Bleeding edge high-level VM?  I agree the JVM is high tech bleeding edge, but java is not.  Shame to put such a weak, procedural, partially oo, static language like Java on such a sleek and powerful VM.  But that'll change soon, real langauges are being made to run on the JVM ( and also some interesting other high tech VM in the works) and I look forward to it.  I've already mentioned I think the next big language will be c# or c#-like and will run on the JVM and on some other people's VMs.  As will my beloved Ruby.  In that day  Java can be for some of the libraries, the commodified stuff that no one will care about and legacy stuff.
dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 20:58:37 -0700 2007
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The problem with "Catching up with Java" is that the folks who were good enough to do the work were also good enough to want a better platform than Java. And some of them built one. Given the chance to program on Rails, I'd not ever bother with Java. Given where we could have been by now, I think we've done pretty well on software freedom. But we still have far to go. That's a harder problem than writing software. Given the fact that I get invited to speak at the U.N. and will be meeting my third head of state next month, I think we're being listened to.

Bruce

dissenting advice for Sun
Thu May 10 21:25:32 -0700 2007
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Wow again.   Rails v. Java, huh?  Gee, that's thoughtful and informed man -- do tell how you arrived at that insightful conclusion.   And, really, the important thing is that Bruce Perens(TM) gets some U.N. cronyism?  Sure.  I salute you for your skill at self parody.   

"We're" being listened to?   What, you got a frog in your pocket?

-t

at some point

Thu May 10 21:38:49 -0700 2007
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At some point, if we're going to be honest on stage here, we're going to have to both bust out laughing at this exchange.  

-t