I voted with my wallet for pre-installed Linux from Dell. I think
this is a good start for having alternatives to Windows for some
average users.
The ship date that they gave me when I ordered my E520N was June
1st, but it actually shipped well before that and I got it 6/1
with regular shipping. The only deviation from the default
configuration was that I didn't need a monitor so I deleted
that resulting in a price of only $409 plus shipping and tax.
That seems to be $140 less than the same machine without Vista,
although there is a difference in the video, but I don't
think there is much of a price differential for that.
This desktop uses a Core 2 Duo 4300 processor model with 1 Gig of
RAM and a 250 Gig HD which, as I mentioned, is the default
configuration. This model doesn't come with PS2 ports, a
parallel port, or a serial port. All peripheral interfacing is
via a number of USB ports. I was concerned because I use a 4 port
KVM switch with PS-2 interface, but the junk box saved the day,
as it often does. I had an old Xircom Port station tucked away
and it provided me with a PS2 to USB conversion that works
without any drivers or fuss. Whew!!
When I opened my shipping box, I looked for documentation.
It's minimal. There's the usual "Setting up your
computer" chart with lots of pictures showing you what hooks
up where, a booklet in different languages that outlines safety
considerations and the warranty, a Dell catalog and a Ubuntu 7.04
install disk with a sticker on it that says to visit
www.ubuntu.com/community if I need any installation or
configuration support.
I'm not new to Ubuntu or even to version 7.04 as I've
installed and used it on some older P-III and Celeron machines.
When I booted it up for the first time it started at the
installation point where it asks you to select your language,
keyboard arrangement, set your time zone and then create your
user name and password. So far so good.
I am not at all a Linux guru. I've never compiled any source
code. I'm a computer user, although I do admit that I have
been playing with Linux as a user for a few years on and off
trying various distros. I first used Ubuntu at version
4.something.
Once the shiny new machine was up and running I wanted to install
peripherals and some additional applications that I use. The
first one was Opera. The install was very easy and quick without
any need for a command line. I then installed Nvu which I use to
edit some web pages I maintain. Flawless and quick again.
Ubuntu found our home network without me lifting a finger and I
was able to easily access files on an XP machine that we use as a
backup server. Then I installed two networked printers. First was
a Canon iPixma-5000 which is attached to my Wife's Athlon 64
XP machine. It's easy and quick, again with no need for the
command line at all. The other printer I use is an old NEC
Superscript 1800 Laser printer on the aforementioned XP file
server. Again, quick and easy. I printed test pages on both.
The bottom line so far is that I'm very pleased with the
value I got with this machine. My first evening of use has been
very satisfying. With the dual core processor and gig of RAM
it's very, very smooth and quick. Note that I purposefully
didn't do anything that required the command line. It's
been a good experience.
Looking forward, I'll want to add a DVD writer (SATA) and
maybe another video card as I'm spoiled by my dual monitor
setup. I want to experiment with wine for some legacy Win/DOS aps
and, if I get ambitious enough, a virtual machine to run XP in
it.
I suppose if I want to buy a machine from a big box OEM, I will grab one of these Dell Ubuntu machines. I will probably not keep Ubuntu on there for long, but it is a way to vote with my dollars, and I would rather avoid paying for MS Windows.
Side note: As somebody who enjoys using the command-line so much, I wonder just what it is that seems so intimidating to users. Do text-only interfaces seems more complicated to normal users? I am out of touch...
Do text-only interfaces seems more complicated to normal users?
I think its the learning curve, how many times do you have to type iwconfig before you remember the command. That said, there's tons of stuff that I do that doesn't have a pretty GUI interface or is a lot easier to do from the command line. Just try to get the latest Dr Who eposide from the newsgroup to mplayer only using GUI tools, probably not gonna happen. Or fix a wifi connection where the wrong driver grabs the card.
There's still some work to do to get Linux ready for the unwashed masses but that's ok, computers that are too easy to use end up being in somebody's botnet.
You can get a Dell with essentially a clean hard drive and install whatever you want.
Long before they offered Ubuntu they offered a few PC models with FreeDOS (they just give you the disk - you have to install it). So basically you can install whatever you want, but you're on your own support wise.
If dell sells a system that works with linux, it works with linux. Getting a raw system you have to go look up every single component, etc to make sure it will all work with your distro, etc.and is a PITA for most people. *Plus*, it is telling the various hardware component manufacturing folks that it might be a good idea to start to think about linux compatibility, sort of a serious nudge and reminder that this "linux/open source thing" should be taken seriously, because love em or hate em, Dell counts as a computer bigdog. There aren't many hardware vendors out there that would go "aw, shoot, just got an order for a million units from Dell, what a bummer....". That just doesn't happen too much I bet, and if dell happened to mention the order had to be at least half way supported under linux or no order, they'd sure think about it.
I think it is the absence of structure. When you deal with a GUI, you immediately have a limited set of things you can do: there are only so many icons on the screen, and there are only so many things you can do to each icon (click, double click, drag, right click, etc.). As such, novice users are more comfortable because they have more structure.
Of course, we who like the command line want that absence of structure: we like being able to run any command on any file without any preliminaries. We find Start->Tools->Editors->Gedit->File->Open->~->myfile to be terribly slow when a simple "gedit ~/myfile" gets us there in a second.
But to a newbie
[wowbaggr@surfer ~]$
is terribly scary - "What do I do now?" is the first thought in their mind.
However, *if* the user is the type to get over their fear, they too quickly discover the power of a modeless interface.
Being GUI centric and a non programmer, I can tell you what's wrong with the command line, it forces you to become a factory trained auto mechanic instead of just a car driver, that's what's wrong with it.
99% of folks who use computers just want to use a handful of applications, with the computer being just a normal household or office appliance, and an icon point and click interface is just *much much easier* to pick up on and use fast. And if it wasn't, we wouldn't be seeing it be the defacto standard for normal desktops now, it would have been abandoned, but it wasn't, it evolved and is in widespread use because it just works.
A billion people agree, humans think faster and easier in pictures. Think of directions you might be giving to someone, "turn left at the sunoco station,go three miles, then right at the big white church", etc. Don't even need to know the actual street names or numbers. It's just easier to pick up on and faster to navigate. A normal GUI menu tree is easy to zip though and mash what you want, rather than typing a buncha arcane stuff that has to be memorized *exactly* or it doesn't work. Miss one character out of place on the command line and joe noob is stuck in the mud with no tow truck to call.
That and unix-y manpages just *suck*, I mean s-u-c-k, for most people, it's like they get charged one hundred dollars a word or something, so they leave out all the bits that make instructions easier to understand for noobs. I mean, I can parse engrish instructions easier than most manpages I have looked at. I own a stout rack of technical manuals for this or that I have accumulated over the years, the linuxy-computer stuff is the worst. The phrase is "english, do you speak it???". It's not there, it's geekrish flavored with acronyms as half the entire sentence everywhere.
When I started using computers it was DOS on a 286 and I hated it with a passion, first Mac I touched (never used an Apple really) with a workable GUI I bought it on the spot (still own it, a 512K). I could do more after a few minutes fooling around with a mouse than some bignum days struggling with DOS and a stack of manuals. Now since then I switched to linux (open source in general, I dig the philosophy of it and like that the serious devs can really share with each other and make cool stuff), and occasionally need to use the command line, and have done a minimal amount of config file changing, but for the most part, no workable GUI would have been a deal breaker from the beginning, as in "what's the point again?".
The command line is obviously great for pros and admins and needs to be there, but don't expect the vast number of people out there to ever really like it or use it, not anymore seeing as how we do have GUI now, because being a programmer or admin is not everyone's primary job or hobby even.
Don't assume anymore that if you're using linux, you'll absolutely have to use command line.
The Dell I just got with pre-installed Ubuntu didn't require any command line useage at all to get up and running and to install additional applications, even ones that weren't in the ubuntu repositories like Opera.
I would like to enforce this man/woman in this statement.
Also, better or worse is an opinion and really depends on how you use it! For example: the cross bow was more accurate, had greater range, much lighter, than the musket. But the musket won anyway, because it was easier to use. You could train platoons of scared peasants and teenagers to use a musket, and could thus, outnumber and out gun all the crossbowmen and archers. Just a parallel.
Well, I normally prefer to use a gui as well ...
The thing is ... when you start toing repetitive tasks ... or even derivative tasks ... that can be scripted ... you will find that scrpting (either bash, perl, or whatever) actually makes your life easier.
In my job, Oracle DBA, i tend to use GUI tools when things are NOT repetitive.
As soon as i see/sense an opportunity to make thinks easier ... out come the scripting vampire ... taking a bite out of the work that i have to do.
SO ...
please do not put down the command line, it has it's place, and some people prefer it ... some don't.
THAT'S what choice is about.
I used Dell's configurator and got $379 (without S&H) for that machine. That's amazing, and what's microsoft going to do when the price of a normal useful home pc goes below $200, which will be very soon? Their profit margins will tank if they have to slash prices of standard home OS/Office in half or a third
what's microsoft going to do when the price of a normal useful home pc goes below $200
They're trying to move to a subscription model: Pay $X/year to use Windows, Office, etc, with automatic updates. At least it would keep users to current patches. And lock them in hard.
MS started offering some sort of stripped down three dollar OS and office and edutainment combo to "the developing world" (I just looked it up, it's called the "Microsoft Student Innovation Suite"). Basically, the pirates set the price of what digital bits are worth on a global scale, so MS had to match them where that sort of thing is more common than not and the OLPC project threatens them. My best guess is MS will be forced to keep dropping prices-even subscriptions- as time goes on, they have no choice in the manner anymore.
Decades ago software was rare and very expensive and not a lot of choice in applications, etc, then it became more common with a diverse set of applications for about any purpose and just plain vanilla expensive, now it is everywhere,and you have dozens of choices for every conceivable sort of task you might need to do with a computer,and fully functioning computers can be found in the trash they are so cheap now and there are so many of them it is a planetary eco nightmare.
And that is what has happened, time moves on, stuff changes. Stasis only exists in the dictionary.
And replicator technology for digital bits (the true important innovation in the past few decades beyond just processing and storage) has completely changed the business models, and the only way they are keeping high prices is sheer blatant raw economic inertia and paying off/corrupting the justice system (that part I'll call an opinion). It's about the same with entertainment digital bits on disk or download, ultra high prices are just such an obvious pricing gouge to most people that so called "piracy" has become common and rampant, very generally, and not personally, speaking.
I went to the generic E520 configuration and it doesn't show Ubuntu. It's also the Celeron processor with half the RAM and a 160 Gig HD for $369 with no monitor and Vista home basic.
Dell Dimension E520N
Date & Time: June 03,2007 6:17 PM CST
SYSTEM COMPONENTS
Dell Dimension E520N Qty 1
Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (1.8GHz, 800 FSB), Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04 Unit Price $559.00
Dell Home Customers: Save $150 instant off on this Dell Dimension E520N!
Limited Time Offer! View Details
- $150.00
Catalog Number: 29 DDCWAV3
Module Description Show Details
Dimension E520n Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (1.8GHz, 800 FSB)
Operating System Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04
Memory 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
Keyboard Dell USB Keyboard
Monitor No Monitor
Video Cards Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950
Hard Drives 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
Floppy Drive and Media Reader No Floppy Drive Included
Mouse Dell® 2-button USB mouse
Network Interface Integrated 10/100/1000 Ethernet
Modem No Modem
CD or DVD Drive 16x DVD+/-RW Drive
Sound Cards Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Speakers No speakers (Speakers are required to hear audio from your system)
Warranty and Service 1Yr In-Home Service, Parts + Labor - Next Business Day
Miscellaneous Award Winning Service and Support
Environmental Options Recycle my old system with Dell (FREE)
TOTAL:$409.00
At that URL, I couldn't get it without a monitor so $629 was my price with the default configuration. I could have eliminated one of the two optical drives that this default included and would have saved another $40. I think they're still playing with the configurations so maybe you can't get the deal that I got, and especially not the $379 one.
<br><br>
BTW, I used my new machine a LOT over the weekend and continue to be very impressed. Now I need to get a second video card since I'm dual monitor spoiled on my XP system and I see this Ubuntu becoming my main computer.
You go through each of the config steps starting at that URL and pick "no monitor" on the monitor choice screen. Then you're at $379 (or maybe $409 apparently, what's up?)
LOL... I'm a dummy or didn't have my caffeine quota yet. The no monitor option required me to scroll down. By doing that and opting for the single optical drive, I can get the $409. When I ordered, the dual optical was an option, not the default. I don't see a way to get below $409, but I've already been wrong once...
The E520N (Linux) can only be reduced to $409 (by removing the monitor).
The E520 (Windows) has *four* different versions:
http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/cto_dimene520?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
Some of those are in the sub-$400 range w/o monitor, but the one that is basically identical in hardware to the E520N is the "Versatile Multimedia" one, which is $549 w/o monitor.
Pentium D processor, much smaller HD, not writable optical drive and Ubuntu doesn't come pre-installed (not a big deal for us geeks.) At least it does say that it comes with the one year limited warranty which there is some question about on the subsequent sales of the version that I got.
Still a nice way to go. My point in buying what I did was to promote pre-installed Linux on a home oriented computer. BTW, I'm really enjoying using mine. It's very fast, at least compared to what I was using.
I figured that it was something proprietary to Dell. The only manufacturer that I'm aware of that uses off-the-shelf Mobo's sometimes is eMachines. Doesn't mean there aren't others, just that I am unaware of them.
The Intel Desktop Mother Board DG965MQ supports 6 SATA II drives, RAID, Viiv, and GMA X3000. The Dell website shows GMA950 (must be a typo!). There's no Intel 965 chipset motherboard with GMA950.
If you can verify that it IS a DG965MQ, that would be great news. Dell's outsourced Tech Support were unintelligible and unable to answer my specific questions as to the main board and features.
The other alternative is the DG965MS - but that doesn't have RAID or Viiv support.
I forgot to mention that I got the Intel info from E520N FreeDOS version, and learned from tech support that the main board format is uBTX. That narrowed down the list of Intel main boards. If they are not incorrect, the DELL has RAID support, which means it is the DG965MQ, not the DG965MS - but I want confirmation.
I doubt that they offer different mother boards for the same E520 box. But I've been fooled in the past.
I don't see any numbers that look like those. What I do see is that it has the Dell logo on it, not Intel. The number that I see screened on the board is E210882 and, on a label with a bar code is the number D38658-306. There are places for 6 SATA ports, but only 4 are populated. I took a picture of the MoBo just now. You can see it at http://myramp.net/images/Dell_mobo1.jpg
BTW, I've never used my camera with a Linux desktop before but thought I'd give it a shot. I connected it via the USB port, turned the camera on and it found it right away, asked if I wanted to d/l the pix files. I selected the one shot that I wanted and put it on my desktop. Then I opened it with GIMP which I've never used for resizing and reduced it to 600X800 within two minutes, saved it back to the desktop. Then I realized that I needed an FTP client to put it up on one of my servers. I went to add/remove programs and installed gFTP with a couple of clicks, uploaded to the server and BINGO!! Who says this linux stuff is hard.. LOL
Thanks for the upload.
Definite discrepancies between SATA sockets and back panel I/O.
Apparently the Dell board is NOT an Intel product -- just uses their chipset. So much for "knowledgeable" customer service.
Sigh.
Perhaps there is a query function that returns the motherboard's mfg and id.
SiSoft Sandra can do that.
I was impressed when Dell decided to re-introduce consumer Linux boxes and further impressed when they chose Ubuntu.
However, I so disliked Dell before all that that while the Ubuntu deal is good for the FLOSS community (exposure wise) and good for Ubuntu, it won't change my mind about Dell.
Not to mention, that the very same day Dell announced the Ubuntu boxes, they also announced they were going to sell PCs in that evil retail chain known as WalMart.
That kind of canceled out the goodness of the Ubuntu stuff.
Not to mention...
Have you taken a look at the options offered on their Windows boxes vs the Ubuntu boxes?
If you get Windows you can get AMD processors, bigger hard drives, multiple hard drives, Sound Cards, more video card options, RAID and so forth...
If I were gonna buy a Dell, I'd get a top-notch Dell Windows box and just install Ubuntu on my own and dual-boot (like I do now).
But....
If you wanna limit yourself to just Ubuntu and no Windows.. there are other, better options. :)
It is a start. They are testing the waters. If the program takes off, I'm fairly certain they'll go thru all the hassle of qualifying different hardware.
Keep in mind, Dell just started selling AMD processors last year. They've been Intel-only since they started business.
1. Lack of options on Linux boxes.
A. They need to make sure that each option actually has supported drivers. That will take time to QA each piece.
There is a decent selection of hard drives and RAM. While they only offer you a choice of two graphics cards -- feel free to take the stock Intel GMA 950 and add your own nVidia card. You can kiss ATI graphics cards goodbye, because their Linux drivers blow chunks compared to Intel and nVidia.
I'm not sure what else there is that is missing, other than all the bundled software choices.
2. Walmart.
A. Sorry, Walmart isn't that evil. No one forces people to shop there. They sell commodity items, and the very nature of commodity items is to move to the lowest price. If Walmart was that bad then people wouldn't be shopping there in droves.
Low end computers are commodity items. There is nothing special about them any more.
Think of it this way -- Walmart is the symptom, not the disease. Bashing Walmart is like taking an aspirin for a headache when you have cancer. Treat the disease, not the symptom if you want to solve the problem.
they also announced they were going to sell PCs in that evil retail chain known as WalMart.
That's an incredibly high standard, not buy anything from any company that sells their goods at Walmart...good luck with that. What's so wrong with wallyworld anyway? They provide poor folks with a good selection of high quality, inexpensive products and they do it well. I guess if you believe all the FUD put out by the unions then yes they are evil but nobody puts a gun to people's heads to make them either work or shop there. Thanks to wallyworld our working poor == European middle class.
Contrary to what you hear in the media, Wal Mart is not bad. Or at least when ole Sam was running things.
They often were more accommodating than many other chains. For example, they have a national policy that allows RVs to park overnight without hassle. Try that at any other department store chain! You'll get rousted.
I know people who were nothing more than high school graduates, who are now pulling $15/hour at Wal Mart. Granted, $30k per year ain't rockin' the Casbah, but it sure beats $5.50 at Micky Dees with zero upward mobility.
If you don't like Wal Mart's prices or products, don't shop there. But don't bash them without cause.
Back to Linux -
I recall, a few years back, they offered bare bones PCs without OS, or with Lindows. Due to low demand or cost problems, they dropped them.
That's great... I am in about the same boat you are as far as my level of experience with Ubuntu. I tried it with 5.whatever and loved it... I put it on my parents computer (my old shuttle I gave to them) and think this might be exactly what they need now that they are looking to buy a laptop. Everytime one of my clients call up (I own a computer consulting business) asking my advice about a new pc and putting theirs out to pasture, I always take the time to enlighten them about Linux. WiFi support and video card support has been the two trickiest things - but hopefully this will all change. With Dell offering Ubuntu not only will the hardware be supported, but I can use them as ammo to build a solid case for Linux on the desktop. So many people I work with really don't need 1/10 of what is offered on a new PC and I think could really benefit from what Ubuntu has to offer.
I was extremely pleased how easy it was to set up my network printer -- I didnt have to do anything!
Thank you for mentioning about the lack of ps2, parallel, and serial ports -- not a huge deal, mind
I got my Ubuntu pre-installed Dell E520N today!!
I voted with my wallet for pre-installed Linux from Dell. I think this is a good start for having alternatives to Windows for some average users.
The ship date that they gave me when I ordered my E520N was June 1st, but it actually shipped well before that and I got it 6/1 with regular shipping. The only deviation from the default configuration was that I didn't need a monitor so I deleted that resulting in a price of only $409 plus shipping and tax. That seems to be $140 less than the same machine without Vista, although there is a difference in the video, but I don't think there is much of a price differential for that.
This desktop uses a Core 2 Duo 4300 processor model with 1 Gig of RAM and a 250 Gig HD which, as I mentioned, is the default configuration. This model doesn't come with PS2 ports, a parallel port, or a serial port. All peripheral interfacing is via a number of USB ports. I was concerned because I use a 4 port KVM switch with PS-2 interface, but the junk box saved the day, as it often does. I had an old Xircom Port station tucked away and it provided me with a PS2 to USB conversion that works without any drivers or fuss. Whew!!
When I opened my shipping box, I looked for documentation. It's minimal. There's the usual "Setting up your computer" chart with lots of pictures showing you what hooks up where, a booklet in different languages that outlines safety considerations and the warranty, a Dell catalog and a Ubuntu 7.04 install disk with a sticker on it that says to visit www.ubuntu.com/community if I need any installation or configuration support.
I'm not new to Ubuntu or even to version 7.04 as I've installed and used it on some older P-III and Celeron machines. When I booted it up for the first time it started at the installation point where it asks you to select your language, keyboard arrangement, set your time zone and then create your user name and password. So far so good.
I am not at all a Linux guru. I've never compiled any source code. I'm a computer user, although I do admit that I have been playing with Linux as a user for a few years on and off trying various distros. I first used Ubuntu at version 4.something.
Once the shiny new machine was up and running I wanted to install peripherals and some additional applications that I use. The first one was Opera. The install was very easy and quick without any need for a command line. I then installed Nvu which I use to edit some web pages I maintain. Flawless and quick again.
Ubuntu found our home network without me lifting a finger and I was able to easily access files on an XP machine that we use as a backup server. Then I installed two networked printers. First was a Canon iPixma-5000 which is attached to my Wife's Athlon 64 XP machine. It's easy and quick, again with no need for the command line at all. The other printer I use is an old NEC Superscript 1800 Laser printer on the aforementioned XP file server. Again, quick and easy. I printed test pages on both.
The bottom line so far is that I'm very pleased with the value I got with this machine. My first evening of use has been very satisfying. With the dual core processor and gig of RAM it's very, very smooth and quick. Note that I purposefully didn't do anything that required the command line. It's been a good experience.
Looking forward, I'll want to add a DVD writer (SATA) and maybe another video card as I'm spoiled by my dual monitor setup. I want to experiment with wine for some legacy Win/DOS aps and, if I get ambitious enough, a virtual machine to run XP in it.
Anybody else get one of the Dell Linux offerings?