The Crop Worth More than Opium

Technocrat

The Crop Worth More than Opium

zogger

Sat Nov 22 17:16:00 -0800 2008

The+Gentleman+Farmer.

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Afghanistan is the world's largest source of opium. The farmers there are poor, and opium that then gets transshipped and turned into more potent black market drugs is worth a lot, so even if their wholesale prices are low, it is enough to live on. So it doesn't matter if it is illegal or not, the trade is there to stay, because they have little choice..so far anyway. A new crop is being pushed that can actually garner the farmers there more per acre than opium poppies, and it is a fast growing market..pomegranates. The problem is, the illicit trade is very sophisticated and handles all the details for the growers there, whereas alternative crops have little official assistance and it is almost impossible to export without relying on huge and costly security, the countryside is in such chaos all the time. Still, it's a start, they are hoping the new fruit orchards will help wean the farmers away from the drugs business.

Joel Hafvenstein, author of Opium Season, a book about working on a poppy alternative crop project in southern Afghanistan, said: "The benefits of the poppy go beyond just what the farmer can get when he sells it at the farm gate. Traffickers provide advance payments, credit, contract farming arrangements, technical advice, a whole package of benefits that don't come with any other crop." ed.z.: neat, but risky. Orchards are a whole different ball game in a warzone, you can't just stick a tree seed in the ground and get a crop that season later on. It wouldn't take much of an afternoon one hour firefight to wipe you and your orchard and income out for a *decade*.

The Crop Worth More than Opium

Michael Smith

Sat Nov 22 17:50:59 -0800 2008
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They might get some opium off the market this way but I think it would just increase the price and value of the remaining crops.

So how about building a parallel distribution system and buying the opium from the farmers at a higher price? From there some could be used to make legitimate drugs, while the rest could be disposed of.

Its a loss making exercise but so is using police and military find opium crops

By the way I love the section this article is in. Maybe there are some Gentlemen growing Opium in Afganistan.

The Crop Worth More than Opium

Thomas Lord

Sat Nov 22 18:54:32 -0800 2008
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So, you'll get the farmers used to a subsidized industry producing poppy, cultivation will move "elsewhere" (probably at some serious costs to the rest of us) and then..... what, exactly? How do you then wean the farmers off your subsidy or is it just their entitlement forevermore?

-t

The Crop Worth More than Opium

John Dalton

Sat Nov 22 20:40:19 -0800 2008
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I would think that the only way to eliminate the opium trade is to eliminate demand. Doesn't economics say that an unmet demand will eventually be provided with a supply: eliminate one supply and another pops up? Your proposal is essentially trying to limit supply to the prohibited drug market.

In my (and many others') opinion the best way to eliminate drug abuse would seem to be to address the root causes of drug consumption. I'm betting that if the money being spent on policing drugs was deployed to well run social programs then drug abuse would cease being a major problem.

The Crop Worth More than Opium

Thomas Lord

Sat Nov 22 23:12:00 -0800 2008
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Yes, well, that's been evident for, well, many decades at the very least.

-t

The Crop Worth More than Opium

T Fluckiger

Sun Nov 23 00:47:02 -0800 2008
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Not all of the demand for drugs is due to social problems that social programs can deal with. There are, and always will be, reasonably well off people who will want drugs. Not just the poor, homeless and/or hopeless.

You may be able to reduce drug use this way, perhaps by half or more. It is probably worth trying too. But you can't eliminate drug use (vs. abuse) this way. At very least, don't sell this as a 'solution' to the 'drug problem'.

T

The Crop Worth More than Opium

John Dalton

Sun Nov 23 03:40:33 -0800 2008
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I don't think that social problems are the exclusive domain of the poor. The well off are also prone to depression, stress and all the other things that can go wrong. The well of are just as valid targets for social programs and are often pretty good at holding their public image together.

The aim wouldn't be to eliminate drug use, but to eliminate drug abuse. I would contend that most drug abuse is due to problems rather than choice. Even in the cases where an abuser "chooses" to do drugs, is it a choice between whatever is going on in their life and the drugs? Alleviate the whatever else, treat the medical aspects and have you fixed the problem? I'm not claiming the treatment will be trivial or even possible in all cases.

I consider a drug abuser to be one whose drug use is having a negative effect on their (or others') life while a drug user is one who's drug use is not negatively impacting their life. By this definition a user is not a problem to be solved. I guess it can be debated whether there is such as thing as a user, and I don't have the experience to offer an opinion either way.

The Crop Worth More than Opium

phred14

Sun Nov 23 03:41:41 -0800 2008
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But demand reduction is at least as much a solution as supply interdiction, which is the only solution we're pushing today. We know how well that's working. It raises prices, causing all sorts of crimes of financina, turns drug kingpins into financial kings, disrupts third-world coutries, feeds another branch of the military-industrial complex, etc.

In my opinion, the current supply interdiction doesn't do spit to stop drugs, it just helps some people feel more moral.

Treating Pain

tert

Mon Nov 24 10:29:16 -0800 2008
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People use opiates and other drugs to treat pain, both physical and emotional. Our society brands the second use as "abuse" and/or "recreational use". This makes no sense. If you could eliminate both types of pain, then I bet demand (legal and otherwise) would disappear, but that isn't going to happen.

I consider the real question to be a matter of finding other ways of dealing with emotional/metaphysical pain. For example, Ecstasy and LSD have been shown to be useful in cases of Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

The Crop Worth More than Opium

Jyri Sillanpaa

Thu Nov 27 07:37:42 -0800 2008
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There is no way to eliminate the demand with the social programs or outright ban on the substance. Look at what happened with alcohol and is happening now with the pot.

You can limit the demand by educating the society about the dangers of the use but those need to be medically proven facts and not propaganda, that's how the tobacco finally seems to be generally accepted as the one of the causes of lung cancer...

Helicopters

Michael Smith

Sun Nov 30 23:56:05 -0800 2008
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Zazz has them for 17 bucks plus shipping.

Helicopters

John Dalton

Mon Dec 01 01:41:23 -0800 2008
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Thanks! I've checked ou the prices and can get them pretty cheap through Electus as well. Work buys a fair bit of gear from them so we tend to get a pretty good discount.

For those puzzled by this cryptic message, it relates to this discussion.

I thought it was funny

zogger

Sun Nov 23 05:58:34 -0800 2008
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my choices there are limited. Put it under jobs, or security..general science...chemistry...what I thought was amazing was how little the farmers get paid. An acre of opium poppies, however much opium that makes, has got to be worth a lot more than a little over a thousand dollars. Seems to be a few zeroes missing to the left of the decimal point there. Another example of the bulk of the profits being made upstream from the producers! heheheheheh With that said, and I have no way to know if it is true or not, but when the Taliban where in control, they had reportedly about completely eliminated the trade, so much so they got foregin aid for their efforts, some few million. Those "northern commanders" that were the first coalition allies were the ones who's serfs were producing the bulk of the opium and the Taliban about wiped them out. Then the US and friends invaded, kicked out the overt control of the Taliban, and opium production shot right back up to record levels.And now allegedly it has reversed completely, now it funds the resistance to a large degree. Allegedly.

I thought it was funny

Charles E Hill

Sun Nov 23 07:20:54 -0800 2008
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That is pretty much the way it is for everything. Raw materials aren't worth anywhere near as much as the finished product.

In some cases food farmers are much closer to the consumer and there isn't a lot of processing involved, but the price of the product in that case is usually fairly low as well. I'm talking apples, cherries, and stuff like that sold raw.

Turn the apples into a pie and the price starts to climb. Ditto for poppies and opium or heroin.

value added

zogger

Sun Nov 23 07:54:53 -0800 2008
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If it was legal, opium would be the finished product for a lot of users. And from what I have read, it isn't that hard to refine it into morphine or heroin, it could be down right there in the local town or directly on the farm. I think coca paste is refined into cocaine mostly in the areas where it is grown. Speaking of which, I remember it wasn't that long ago (seems like it anyway) coca leaves for tea were still legally sold in stores. The whole drugs thing is sorta nuts anyway, humans just like getting a buzz it appears (and I consider alcohol nothing more than liquid drugs, equivalent to illegal "hard drugs" in that some folks can handle it forever, others get hopelessly addicted and socially destructive), I doubt they will ever be able to eradicate their use for enjoyment until all humans are genetically manufactured and they remove whatever it is that makes humans like that. To be replaced of course by the officially approved drugs, humans will be built to need those... thinking further along those lines, I guess I would see no other (likely if we don't commit planetary suicide first) path for humanity other than going to some sort of mashup between big brother and the borg collective, an advanced class separation feudal system (alpha to epsilon) combined with transhumanism/genetic engineering/mechanical enhancements, etc.

value added

Charles E Hill

Sun Nov 23 08:06:40 -0800 2008
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The whole drugs thing is sorta nuts anyway, humans just like getting a buzz it appears (and I consider alcohol nothing more than liquid drugs, equivalent to illegal "hard drugs" in that some folks can handle it forever, others get hopelessly addicted and socially destructive), I doubt they will ever be able to eradicate their use for enjoyment until all humans are genetically manufactured and they remove whatever it is that makes humans like that.

I agree. But I have to do a bit more historical research to be sure how people would react. During the 19th Century there were a lot of "over the counter" opiates legal in the U.S., and I remember reading historical articles about "a nation of addicts". I believe they were sensationalist, but would like to read up more on it first.

I also have heard the phrase "if it was bad for you the gov't would make it illegal" too many times. Of course, stupidity is also something you can't eradicate with prohibition.

value added

pyro9

Sun Nov 23 21:51:41 -0800 2008
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Of course, we can't ban everything people can develop a physical or psychological dependance to since that would include food, running, shopping, sports (watching or playing), the internet, video games etc etc.

I thought it was funny

President4242

Tue Nov 25 09:32:41 -0800 2008
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The same thing amazed me about Eastern Oregon wheat farmers- $100/acre/crop is all they get from their land. No wonder they've gone a bit windmill crazy out there- with PGE paying $1400/acre/year for a windmill that barely takes up 100 sq feet at the ground.