$7.7 Trillion

Technocrat

$7.7 Trillion

zogger

Mon Nov 24 15:48:00 -0800 2008

Jobs.

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As long as the number 7 is up for discussion, the above figure is what Bloomberg researchers came up with for the true level of the bailouts and loans...so far.

When Congress approved the TARP on Oct. 3, Fed Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson acknowledged the need for transparency and oversight. Now, as regulators commit far more money while refusing to disclose loan recipients or reveal the collateral they are taking in return, some Congress members are calling for the Fed to be reined in. ed.z.: and a lone voice from the Congressional wilderness cries out [Ron Paul] "toldyaso"

And they refuse to say exactly where all the money is going. *Refuse*. Some yes, but a lot, nope. And we haven't even started on the new, New Deal yet with the upcoming administration.

If you are a US citizen, you've now "invested" over 25 grand on bailouts (you might have received upto 600 bucks in insta rebates for that expenditure though to make you feel better about it). That's brand new babies on up, so if you have a family, add it up.. Not sure how other folks think, but I don't feel like I got 25 grand worth of service or products so far for my "investment" in maintaining a whole lot of someones else's upscale Manhattan-esque lifestyles and cushy jobs just because I was threatened with having my economy crashed if I didn't pay up, and fast. Of course, I realize this is oblique, but those are real numbers to contemplate, along with the "so far" part.

I think it would have been better if we had called their economic terrorism bluff and had them explain from jail cells how the economy was now going to crash, and exactly why again, in a bit more detail with some more exact names/dates/places to further clarify this "emergency" situation. We might be looking at totally different headlines right now. It's like those Somali pirates, pay them once, keep paying them, they will go for more and bigger targets. Sink them and be done with it, no more being heldup for ransom. IMO YMMV

$7.7 Trillion

Matt T

Mon Nov 24 16:45:28 -0800 2008
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Heh, heh, I had just linked that article in a reply for Thomas.

Don't forget that the estimates for the 2009 economic stimulus program are an additional $700B - $1T in new spending.

We really can't build to the sky (expand the economy forever, sooner or later everyone has your widget), and we really can't borrow our way out of debt.

$7.7 Trillion

Charles E Hill

Mon Nov 24 17:20:07 -0800 2008
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Back when FDR tried to bail everything out with the New Deal the U.S. was the biggest creditor nation in the world. Other countries owed money to us. Today we are the largest debtor nation in the world. In fact, we owe more money than every other nation combined.

From 1930-1933 the U.S. suffered deflation at a rate of 10% per year. This time, if deflation happens, it means we would essentially be defaulting on foreign-owned debt. If it started to happen significantly, we'd be royally screwing over China, Japan, the E.U. and others who own our debt as it devalued in relation to the dollar.

As a reaction, it is quite possible they'd start calling in our debt and our economy would be totally done for. Reset, start over, the key is to bang the rocks together guys.

$7.7 Trillion

pojo

Mon Nov 24 18:17:21 -0800 2008
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I thought deflation for creditors was a good thing. If you are in debt, it's bad for you because you now must pay with money that is more "dear" (worth more than it was), and one of the downsides to deflation is that you make less (individually and a country as a whole).

A lot of inflation is a bad thing for the person who made the loan. If I loan someone $50, and then we have hyper inflation of 15% the year after, that $50 that he owes me is now worth 15% less than it was a year before. Hopefully I when I loaned it to him, I realized that the inflation was going to be high and so charged him 21% interest on it :).

$7.7 Trillion

Charles E Hill

Mon Nov 24 18:30:10 -0800 2008
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It would be good for us, if our creditors lets us get away with it. That is a big "if". If they realize that our debt is shrinking by deflation, they're going to want to call it in ASAP to maximize THEIR return, causing us to default.

$7.7 Trillion

Spider

Mon Nov 24 18:06:40 -0800 2008
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$7.7T sure is a lot of money and Bloomberg numbers are probably spot on. The year 2009 is not looking good with retail companies yet to feel the real affect of people not spending money. I think in 2009 we will see a lot of companies world-wide go bust and unemployment rise to record highs.

It is hoped that as far as the US is concerned that their new administration will be able to turn things around but I think the stable door has been opened far too long and the horse has galloped too far into the distance. It will take a long time to "come right".

This year I have put in a vegetable garden ( 40 years since the last one) to help out family and myself. Falling bank interest rates on invested money are going to make it hard to survive on a pension for this old wrinkly.

gardening

zogger

Wed Nov 26 07:20:28 -0800 2008
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Gardening is a great investment and heckuva lot of fun, past the dreary drudge work of course. Once it is built and established though it is more fun than not, and you can't beat the commute or prices to the backyard supermarket. If you want to venture into a little small scale meat production, try ducks instead of chickens. I'm really impressed with the differences we are seeing. I like the chickens, but the ducks just do better, with the caveat it is a little harder to maintain them if you include a pond for them to swim around in, they love it. We just use a big tank and empty it out periodically. Dumb me though, I need to reestablish where their pen is so it is DOWNHILL to the garden instead of uphill, then I could use a drain and drain that water into some growing beds. Anyway, they grow faster, seem to tolerate weather extremes better, won't tear the garden up like chickens and they give good eggs more year round without needing the artificially extended daylight the chickens need to keep laying (my chickens just started again since I installed a little light in their coop with a timer). The ducks have been laying right along though, no electric light needed.

$7.7 Trillion

Spider

Wed Nov 26 14:06:47 -0800 2008
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Heard on news today the UK Woolworth's (big stores) are closing stores due to bankruptcy.

slap another $800B on that total

rubycodez

Tue Nov 25 06:38:19 -0800 2008
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New program announced, the TALF. The Fed has crossed the line into a dangerous amount of risky loans; if the economy continues to contract over the next year and big banks fall, the system goes with it.

“Clearly, the Fed and the Treasury are beginning to take a large amount of credit risk.” -- former St. Louis Fed president Poole.

$7.7 Trillion

President4242

Tue Nov 25 08:14:03 -0800 2008
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I'll repeat what I said before- only an idiot would invest in US bonds, US dollars, or anything this treasury does.

$7.7 Trillion

lexic0n

Tue Nov 25 10:43:42 -0800 2008
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And, due to the frequent meddling in the stock market by the US government, it is nearly impossible to invest in it with any confidence either.

The looming increases in inflation (if not hyperinfationary, likely near-so) will almost certainly wipe out any gains earned by conventional deposits on interest.

There are diminishing safe havens for saving and investment. Food commodities (you gotta eat), money metals, etc.

We're putting in a garden, wood stove, solar/wind generation -- hopefully all within the next six months. I won't say "the end is nigh" quite yet, but that's no reason not to be prepared.

well, hey!

zogger

Wed Nov 26 07:02:00 -0800 2008
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Good for you! I feel like my sore fingers over the past year have done some good then! The best investment people can do today is in THEMSELVES and getting as independent as possible from the rigged economy. We are all forced into playing, but we can minimize the bad effects by acting proactively.

well, hey!

lexic0n

Wed Nov 26 08:43:24 -0800 2008
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zogger, I'd be interested to talk with you more about your set-up. We live on a little bit of land, with access to woods and pasture. We're definitely intersted in becoming much more self-sufficient.

You and many others on this board have been a source of inspiration and no small amount of food for thought.

Feel free to contact me offline sometime at jeff.herron at gmail dot com.

$7.7 Trillion

d47xeiwP

Tue Nov 25 12:08:01 -0800 2008
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I'm confused by this talk of hyperinflation. Money is being destroyed in the range of trillions a week. Stock market, commodities, derivatives, real estate, etc. are all tanking. That's text book deflation: a contraction in the money supply.

Sure, the US government is pumping trillions so far into "fixing" this problem. These trillions are debt secured notes, which increases the money supply (i.e., inflation).

However, the wealth destruction is occurring far faster than the government can keep up. When you combine the deflation of the market and inflation by the US government, you end up with net deflation of the dollar.

That's starting to play out in real prices. Look around at retail prices, retail gasoline, or wholesale dry goods. Prices are dropping.

That's scary. Since we owe a lot of money to other countries in dollars, deflation will increase the real amount that we owe them. Our debt is ballooning fast due to deflation. Our attempts to stave off deflation through issuing debt secured notes only adds to the problem by increasing our nominal principal.

We are facing a bumpy road.

$7.7 Trillion

President4242

Tue Nov 25 12:11:26 -0800 2008
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What we are facing, simply put, is slavery.