Technocrat

By the Numbers for Electric Car Batteries

zogger
Thu Nov 27 15:36:00 -0800 2008
Chemistry.
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Right now there are only two primary sources for batteries for hybrid or pure electric cars, Nickle Metal Hydride, or Lithium-Ion. NiMH are the most common now because of cost, the LiIon are coming on strong because of their lighter weight and ability to store and release a much larger charge. But how about the chemistry behind it, what's up with Lithium supply long term?

This greasy solution yields the substance that makes modern life possible: lithium. The lightest of all metals, lithium is the key ingredient in the rechargeable batteries that keep cell phones and laptops humming. Chile is the Saudi Arabia of lithium. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, this single ancient lake bed contains 27% of the world's reserve base of the metal. ed.z.: Flooded lead acid and supercaps for the cheap electric cars. The other stuff is good for the very high medium to high end cars, but neither is going to be powering the 15 grand cheap electric commuter cars. Not with those numbers in the article. And 40-50 grand for an electric car to save some on gasoline isn't going to work past a smaller niche market, and not in this economy.

By the Numbers for Electric Car Batteries
John Dalton
Fri Nov 28 01:25:48 -0800 2008
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From the article:

China, which produces 23% of the world's lithium carbonate but most of it at a far higher cost than Chile does, recently started extracting brine cheaply from a Tibetan salar.

Presumably resources are a contributor to China's annexation/invasion of Tibet. If Chile is the "The Saudi Arabia of Lithium" then Tibet must be the "The Iraq of Lithium"?

By the Numbers for Electric Car Batteries
Richard Sexton
Fri Nov 28 03:25:12 -0800 2008
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There are five alternatives to lithium in development right now. The closest one is the sodium based battery work at Waterloo.

Sodium is considerably more abundant than lithium.

"in development"

zogger
Fri Nov 28 09:24:00 -0800 2008
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That's the thing, we need affordable electric vehicles (pure EV with at least 40 mile range or like affordable diesel electric PEV) starting 2009, 10. Right now that is flooded lead acid (golf cart batteries, low in power but cheap, suitable for like 10-20 miles "around town" type cars, NEVs), NiMH and LiIon (suitable for hybrids or plug in normal vehicles right now), they are all production ready in mass quantities. Thin film cheap printable solar panels are in development as well, but what limited supplies exist that are being produced are all spoken for in advance, like the nanosolar stuff, they might as well be unobtanium. I don't know what the current (pun intended) status is of the flooded lead acid/supercap hybrid batteries, hopefully they are REAL soon now. If ten to twenty years the other battery tech is good enough for mass adoption, swell, but industry has a robust relationship with the others as the status quo at this time. Those are doable. We've seen the insane price swings with conventional petroleum, we need a transition stage with vehicles now, in a big way, hundreds of thousands to millions of vehicles, before that happens again, or perhaps even worse, an emergency much larger Mideast war for example could about bankrupt the world worse than what is happening now if gulf oil shipments went offline in large part for any extended period, like months or even years, which could happen. In other words, more research is still good and warranted, but it is "good enough" now to get the ball rolling past a couple hundred expensive electric vehicles a year. We need the electric Model A, get the ball rolling in the affordable commuter and light truck areas. And 40/50 (proposed Volt price range) to 100 grand is not "affordable" in any large part now, they need to be like 20 grand, skip the bling and the bloat and heated DVD trays. They have to be loads closer to conventional entry level inexpensive cars that exist today in price to get economies of scale ramped up quickly.

By the Numbers for Electric Car Batteries
George Lewis
Fri Nov 28 11:12:37 -0800 2008
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Every crisis forces a technological change for the better. Batteries research was dead for almost 100 years until it was needed for space travel... Now that it's needed for OUR travel - and to save our financial systems, everyone is FINALLY doing basic battery research.

I know times are bad, but people need to remember that "bad" times are a necessity to WAKE-PEOPLE-UP! And cause us to FORCE the change necessary... even when the largest NOnational corporations attempt to stop progress (like buying the NiMH technology patents)... and many other patents we don't even know about.

It is time for global energy change.... and we must stick together and be POSITIVE. Let's all go to www.Change.gov and tell the President Elect what should really be done... Let's all be positive and not only share information with our peers, but with a government that actually has set-up a website to LISTEN to our ideas. For other interesting topics like the one here: please visit: www.HiddenBuzz.com

By the Numbers for Electric Car Batteries
President4242
Mon Dec 01 08:50:22 -0800 2008
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I know times are bad, but people need to remember that "bad" times are a necessity to WAKE-PEOPLE-UP!

Exactly what I was trying to say earlier.  In more areas than just green technology.

 

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