They Call it Black Friday/update

Technocrat

They Call it Black Friday/update

zogger

Fri Nov 28 12:25:00 -0800 2008

Security.

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Black Friday is traditionally the heaviest shopping day of the season. It really turned into "Black Friday" for one Walmart employee today, as he was smashed to the ground and trampled to death by people trying to be first into the store to get the "bargains". UPDATE: Police are viewing the videos trying to identify those responsible, possible charges involved now.

"He was bum-rushed by 200 people," said Jimmy Overby, 43, a co-worker. "They took the doors off the hinges. He was trampled and killed in front of me. They took me down too...I literally had to fight people off my back." ed.z.: the veneer of civilization is *quite thin*. I hope they ID every single "shopper' involved and charge them with manslaughter. And Walmart itself needs to be charged as well for failing to maintain any sort of order. They shouldn't have opened the doors like that until people were really in some sort of line and acting normally-no normality, screw the profits, keep the doors shut, call the cops, send them home. I've seen this same human-roach mentality riding mass transit before numerous times. If you can't make it into adulthood and learn to form a line, then too bad, you fail being civilized. There was no "life and death" emergency involved here. All to get cheap crap, disgusting. ed.z.2: I sincerely hope this goes all the way to the top with the billionaires in Bentonville and the various stockholders. Enough's enough on consumer brainwashing. I'd like an overview and some regs put on "sales" anyway, most of the time it is bait and switch, they'll have a few items at sale price then nothing, causing the stampedes. This whole "be a human lemming" deal is just bogus and leads to this sort of nonsense. Other reports coming out, fights and shootings over video game consoles, all sorts of weird stuff. Stampedes to buy cheap import crap, people trampled to death so that we can export more jobs and "save" a few pennies-and trash the decent diversified economy we built up over generations in the process, equally stupid, IMO. Geez... I know I am not going gift shopping at all until January I think this year, just going to boycott the whole deal like I do **AA full bloat price products. they'll be enough marked down sales then when VAT tax reductions go on, but it won't be such a madhouse. The season is about peace and love, not buy cheap crap. Just gotten too nutso to be part of it. The only thing I really wanted lately is the analog to digital TV converter, we got our coupons, but most likely I will buy it online now, been looking at reviews of them. And that is only because it is *required* soon, or I wouldn't even want that.

It's what WalMart wants

wowbagger

Fri Nov 28 13:43:24 -0800 2008
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Unfortunately, this sort of irrational "BUYBUYBUYBUY" mindset is exactly what WalMart (and indeed, every other retailer) wants - no, NEEDS.

If you are rational and calm, you are going to be evaluating every item and saying "Now, do I really need this? Do I need it today, or can I wait until after Christmas? Is this a good price? Maybe I should check some other stores out..." You WON'T be grabbing every piece of crap you can lay hands on, spending money you don't have, to enrich their bottom line.

From WalMart's perspective on this, there are only 2 bad things that have happened:

They got some bad publicity that might keep people out of the store.

An ~~worker drone~~valued employee got killed so they will have to pay some money to the bereaved family.

If it had been a shopper (so they could say "Not OUR fault" and avoid paying) then all would have been right with the world.

It's what WalMart wants

pyro9

Fri Nov 28 14:26:12 -0800 2008
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Sadly, what they got is exactly what so many advertise for Black Friday. A 'door buster'. I have seen 'door buster' commercials showing fearful employees looking at the crazed consumers piled up against the doors and trying to carefully unlock the doors without being trampled.

I often asked myself what sort of rabid demented shoppers would actually create such a situation. Now I know.

It's what WalMart wants

Thomas Lord

Fri Nov 28 14:49:05 -0800 2008
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If you are rational and calm, you are going to be evaluating every item and saying "Now, do I really need this? Do I need it today, or can I wait until after Christmas? Is this a good price? Maybe I should check some other stores out..."

Not really, not quite, not as you mean it.

Your proscription there is for someone who is poor but not oppressed. Such a person should try to accumulate as much cash as they can and direct as much of their spending as they can to savings in the form of investment in themselves (e.g., pay for training, pay for tools, etc.). Sure.

But most poor people I've met are oppressed. They shouldn't make a great effort to accumulate cash because when you lack cash you can often escape paying unjust fines and the like but if you have cash it will just get eaten up by such things. Similarly, available training / tools options at their price points aren't worth the money, most of the time.

So if you come into a few bills at the same time as some big sale is going on... splurging can be pretty rational.

It's not really, by the way, a contradiction between the rationality of splurging and the obvious goodness of buying tools: you do both at once. I'm sure that, but for this incident interrupting business that day, this walmart would have sold plenty of useful household goods, appliances, useful clothes, etc. Even the big-screen TVs you hear about going out into the 'hood are often quite useful tools (e.g., for community building).

The moral error here does seem, though, I agree, with Walmart. They advertised a flash-mob event, got a flash-mob event, but designed a stupid and dangerous flash-mob event and then failed to react responsibly when the danger started to become manifest.

One wonders if Walmart didn't create incentive for this outcome by explicitly or implicitly promising some reward to store manager's whose black friday numbers came in best.... or who got on the local news (in a favorable light instead of this).

-t

It's what WalMart wants

rubycodez

Fri Nov 28 16:09:42 -0800 2008
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that poor and oppressed excuse doesn't cut it, I've been to places where people were much poorer than anyone in that stampede, but were much more polite and civilized in large markets. The main problem at that Walmart was between the left and right ears of the stampeders.

It's what WalMart wants

Thomas Lord

Fri Nov 28 16:36:22 -0800 2008
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rubycodez

Please do not accuse me of arguments that I did not make. I contradicted Wowbagger on the rationality of spending money on "things you don't need" -- not on the justification of stampeding. "Poor and oppressed" is a good (rational) excuse for sometimes blowing your cash on non-essentials (a "move it or lose it" rationality).

As for the rationality of the stampede, you have to ask about expected outcomes under similar circumstances and you have to ask about perspective. The shopkeeps here had the perspective and reasonable expectations (upon which they failed to act). The crowd? Far less clear... The video-tapes must tell a lot about how responsible various members of the crowd were but it's already clear that the shopkeeps are culpable here.

-t

It's what WalMart wants

rubycodez

Fri Nov 28 17:12:05 -0800 2008
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oh, sorry for misread.

videos already on the net, some stampedes at other places too.

when I briefly was poor (not oppressed), I sure didn't have impulse buying problem, priorities were the marching orders in my mind, pinched the pennies on just essentials. Something weird about some of the poor in the USA, 400 lbs. and standing in line for ding-dongs and "orange drink" at the 7-eleven with food stamps. I would make that same amount of money provide lunches for a week in hard times.

It's what WalMart wants

Richard Sexton

Sat Nov 29 05:17:14 -0800 2008
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You're not as likely to find the poor and opressed in Long Island. It's a fairly upscale area. Besides, the poor dont go shopping at 5 am on blck friday. And I just bet ya everybody drove there.

It's what WalMart wants

Thomas Lord

Sat Nov 29 11:52:56 -0800 2008
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Not sure I buy that (other than the "rode in a car" part and only with the qualifier "most").

-t

It's what WalMart wants

Richard Sexton

Sat Nov 29 12:37:51 -0800 2008
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Ok pretend it happened in Mayfair.

arriving in cars

Julian Brookes

Thu Dec 04 01:12:52 -0800 2008
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a new update describes the stampede as the result of a clash between two large groups of people. From the story:

Shoppers who remained inside their vehicles in the parking lot until the Valley Stream store's special 5 a.m. opening apparently clashed with people who had stood in line for hours outside Wal-Mart, police said.

Long Island...

the_rajah

Sun Nov 30 11:17:31 -0800 2008
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That particular shopping area is on the border of Nassau County and Queens, barely qualifying as Long Island, meaning Nassau and Suffolk counties. It's definitely not a "rich folks" area, albeit not reaching the "oppressed" level. It's not the Hamptons by a large margin.

Long Island...

Alan

Sun Nov 30 17:20:52 -0800 2008
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It's definitely not a "rich folks" area,

From the photos of the crowd, that seems obvious. And rich folks aren't up before 5 AM on a Winter morning to stand in line in to shop at Walmart.

They Call it Black Friday

McGiraf

Fri Nov 28 17:10:59 -0800 2008
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The Who got banned from many cities because of a similar incident. I say ban walt-mart! :)

They Call it Black Friday

phred14

Fri Nov 28 18:38:29 -0800 2008
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Back in the 70's Led Zeppelin was playing in town, in an arena with open seating. 8 people got trampled to death. (Cleveland/Akron area, in Ohio)

In this case, the remedy was less extreme. No more open seating for a major event like this.

They Call it Black Friday

Charles E Hill

Fri Nov 28 19:46:44 -0800 2008
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Didn't WKRP in Cincinnati do an episode on that event?

They Call it Black Friday

phred14

Sat Nov 29 04:22:38 -0800 2008
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Don't know, didn't regularly watch. Of course I saw the turkey episode, since they usually bring it out, this time of year.

They Call it Black Friday

mengel

Sun Nov 30 17:37:54 -0800 2008
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Yes. I went to high school (Beavercreek High School) with several people who were at that concert. The folks further back in line had no idea until the next morning. I'll never forget the look on the guy's face in homeroom when he heard, examining his sneakers for possible bloodstains...

A CEO's wet dream

jamestrexx

Sat Nov 29 14:32:02 -0800 2008
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People killing over who can spend their money first at the store.
And then getting their bargain advertised in the news story. (see the update from Myway)

They Call it Black Friday/update

Mansing

Sat Nov 29 15:48:14 -0800 2008
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“What Would Jesus Buy?”

A seriously funny, but bitingly satirical, look at American consumerism and the holidays.

I can't begin to fathom what “door buster” sale item was worth the death of a person ... goodwill towards all men indeed.

Update - I've been in a crowd like this

phred14

Sat Nov 29 17:17:18 -0800 2008
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Back in college days, I went to a "World Series of Rock" concert at Cleveland Stadium. With reference to the earlier Led Zeppelin post, this was also general seating.

There was some sort of "official motion" up front, and from behind the crowd surged forward. They weren't actually opening the doors, but it was some sort of action that might have looked like they were about to. Nonetheless, the crowd surged forward. Those closer to the front - including me - got "compressed." There were railings about waist height designed to channel the people into lines, and there was a girl (Didn't know her, never met her, squished up to her once.) between me an one of those railings. She begain crying and moaning from the pressure, and the only thing I could do was put my arms around, grip the railing, and push myself away, to relieve her pain. Nothing else do be done - the pressure was from the crowd - that big amorphous thing called a crowd, no individual involved.

I doubt anyone at the front of the line at Wal Mart could have done anything to prevent the trampling. To have even tried would have increased the number injured/killed.

Perhaps Wal Mart should have had some sort of outside security to keep things under control - maybe ropes and a line.

Do we know when a bunch of people become a crowd? Do we know anything about keeping them from becoming a crowd, and keeping them a bunch of people in line? I'd be curious to know what Disney knows, because they are the "masters of the line," at their theme parks.

Update - I've been in a crowd like this

pyro9

Sun Nov 30 11:37:33 -0800 2008
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In the slideshow accompanying the report, I saw a sign from management reading "blitz line forms here". It seems like they actively encouraged the behavior (a blitz) that got their employee killed.

It seems that there are two ways to keep a line from becoming a mob. Either keep the line moving (the Disney approach) or eliminate the perception of advantage for rushing the line.

At one time when camping for concert tickets was permitted, people
were entered onto a list as they arrived and struck from the list if they didn't answer an occasional roll call (this was generally self organized by the campers) . Just before sale started, people lined up according to the list. Problems only happened when local law enforcement or a security guard chose not to honor the list (re-instating an advantage to getting there first).

In the same way, general admission seating creates a big advantage to getting inside quickly. Reserved seating removes that advantage.

In the case of the crazy sales, stores try to promote a shopping frenzy and the perception that there *IS* a significant advantage to getting inside quickly (don't miss out!). The natural result is a mob mentality. Security and a formal line would at least help by promoting the belief that trying to push ahead would get you ejected.

Update - I've been in a crowd like this

stephen

Mon Dec 01 05:48:36 -0800 2008
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It was not an amoral crowd. It was a bunch of individuals, a majority of whom when pushed from behind pushed harder in front rather than resisted.

If even half of the people, evenly dispersed, resisted then nobody would have been hurt.

Apply this concept to society as a whole.

Black Friday is not the heaviest shopping day

Martin Blank

Mon Dec 01 13:54:44 -0800 2008
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Black Friday is traditionally the heaviest shopping day of the season.

No, it's not, and it never has been. Black Friday is the start of the holiday shopping season, but the busiest shopping days have always been in the days leading up to Christmas. From 1993 to 2002, Black Friday cracked the list of the top five days only three times, and never made it higher than third place.

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/thanksgiving/shopping.asp