My take on automation

wowbagger

Sun Nov 30 07:49:23 -0800 2008

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While the main reason I went to the Boston Embedded Systems Conference wasn't to look at home automation solutions, there were a couple of vendors there and I stopped to talk to them. They agreed that the current state of the art was well ahead of what was commonly available, and that until that fact changed home automation would be stalled.

I've been looking at this sort of thing ever since 2000 when I bought my house. I don't want to get crazy - I just want to:

• Fix some of the stupid choices of where light switches are (e.g. my kitchen's under cabinet lights are controlled only from one switch, well inside the kitchen, rather than from the switch panel by the kitchen door like I think they should be). Yes, I could theoretically pull the wire down the wall, under the floor, and back up into the box, install a larger box (or smaller switches), and fix the problem that way, but that's much more work than installing a remote control switch would be,
• Automate a few simple things: turning on the coffee in the morning so that it is brewed when I get to the kitchen, rather than my pushing the button and then standing there bleary-eyed while it brews.
• Smarten up the thermostat: I currently have a set-back thermostat and pretty much shut down the system during the days when I am not home, but when I go on a trip I'd REALLY like to be able to tell the system "I'm on the way home, turn the system on" so that I come back to a comfortable house.

Sure, it would be cool (literally) to be able to open the windows when it is nice outside, and close them (and switch on the climate control as needed) when it isn't even if I am not there (remember: I live in Kansas. The weather can go from sunny to driving rain in minutes). It would be interesting to track the water softener's usage to see when I need to buy salt (and to command it to do a recharge while I am at work when possible). It would be nice to monitor the sump pump and see how often it is cycling (especially should I lose main power!) But all of those WBNiFs are secondary.

Now, the problem is the technology to do that.

(grrrrr frackin HTML tidy is broken and won't let me do a proper <dl>)

X10

Currently, you can get X-10 stuff at the stores. X-10 stuff is junk - there is no feedback, so if you command something on, you really have no way of knowing if it did indeed turn on. You have no way of knowing if the device was already on because it was switched on by the user. The "loop" isn't closed.

Insteon

The nominal sucessor to X-10, Insteon, looks good. It is closed loop. It is faster than X-10. It can use relay stations so you don't get dead spots. It uses RF so that you can control things that are NOT on the main power lines.

You also cannot get it in the stores. Yes, you can order it online if you find somebody to sell it. However, that makes it more difficult to try it out, and see if it will work. It makes it difficult to grow a system piece by piece. I don't know if I can easily integrate it into my current Linux system for control. It is also significantly more expensive that X-10. I am NOT going to spend tens of dollars for a freaking light switch, especially when I have a pretty good idea of what the Bill Of Materials cost for that switch is!

The Insteon "marketing" people are not doing their jobs.

Bluetooth

Bluetooth would be another good way to go, but there are no off the shelf solutions, and it it too expensive.

ZigBee

ZigBee might be interesting, save there are really NO good modules on the market. I'd have to roll my own from expensive parts.

802.11

In many ways this would be the real contender. I already have an 802.11 network in the house. It is an open standard. I could do the control from my N800 directly. There are standards for many of the devices in question (granted, uPnP is a dreck-y standard, but....) But again, no real off-the-shelf solutions for anything approximating a price I am willing to pay.

It seems to me that Nokia is going after the wrong end of the problem - the are going after the command center. Who cares?!!! If there are no DEVICES to be controlled a control center is USELESS. Now, were Nokia to go after the target devices - where they to get a good US$10 light switch controller, a good US$20 dual outlet module, a good US$30 dry contact interface, a good US$50 garage door controller (opener motor not included), then I might be interested.

Tangentially on-topic: I would see automation like this being marginally easier in the US than in Europe due to the mains voltage and the safety requirements derived from that - controlling 110VAC is just a bit easier than controlling 220VAC. Yes, the actual control element may not be much different, but that extra voltage does mean more insulation. Does anybody in the UK have any experience with this?

other places to look

zogger

Sun Nov 30 11:06:13 -0800 2008

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Maybe look beyond "home" equipment and look what is available in the commercial poultry houses and greenhouses. I think they are (well, I know they are, I see the stuff) way ahead for practical do dads you can get to do stuff automatically with preprogramming and have remote control over it wirelessly and over the net. Now it won't be ten dollars, but I think you might be able to find some of the stuff you are looking for, even to the opening and closing windows deal. Our entire operation is computer controlled now, lights (down to the lumen per light, that's adjustable), heating (down to the degree at floor level and then some feet up), cooling(same), feeding(tons to lbs per unit time delivered and for how long), watering(gallons per minute delivered with automatic shutoff so no waste), venting/air circulation(small vents and a variety of huge fans are mechanically controlled on/off and open and shut), backup generator power(multiple large diesels). One guy can manage a lot of huge houses that do a lot of "stuff" and have 24/7 monitoring and tweaking ability remotely, wired or wireless or physically standing in front of the control panel and mashing microswitches. Heck, we don't have it but I don't think it would be much more to have video feeds as well. One of the units even has voice, some computerized lady voice will just speak out what is going on if you want that. And you being an electronics and radio nerd, I bet you can adapt a lot of it. Just google around for equipment suppliers, easy enough to find. Now they use some expensive proprietary computer unit, but I think it could be reproduced with off the shelf PC components a lot cheaper. Not my call around here though. but all the other stuff is just install/wire it in, program and set. We even have all the huge grain bins set on individual scales, each support leg has a sensor between the bin and the ground so they can monitor how much is delivered and in the bins so it is automatically re ordered for another fillup right before it is scheduled to run out. That looks like some sort of micromeasuring flex deal, never looked at it that close but I know it works and is wired into everything and notifies the big packing house company where we get the feed from. Automagical. From what I understand, the older all analog stuff worked almost as well, there must be tons of that out there on the used market still. Anyway, might be fun to look around and see what you might be able to find.

So why aren't there any devices?

KlaymenDK

Sun Nov 30 11:22:36 -0800 2008

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Good point: Why aren't there any devices? No, really.

I've been mildly interested in home automation for a few years, but I have yet to do anything about it (this moment I don't even own the simplest of wall-socket timers). One reason is that it is quite plain to me that the technology is still immature and, as you say, simply not available in stores yet; another is that I live for rent and there's a rather low limit to how much customizing and investment I'm willing to do in things that I can't move along with me.

So naturally, when I read this, my interest is piqued once more and I can hear the naïve voices in my head starting to discuss what it would take to create these apparently sought-after devices: "Surely, simple light switches and timers can't be all that difficult to control, why it can undoubtedly be done with Arduino hardware for starters, and scale from there. And if done in a properly open source way, all the geeks would love it and it would integrate nicely into their inevitable home Borg units." And so on and so forth.

But of course, I am wrong. Incidentally, I don't really know myself just why I'm wrong, only that I am --- and that this site is known for its ample skill and willingness to explain such things. So please go ahead, I'm very interested to know: why aren't we forming "Technocrat Enterprises, makers of home automation devices that really work"?

So why aren't there any devices?

zotz

Sun Nov 30 13:41:50 -0800 2008

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"I'm very interested to know: why aren't we forming "Technocrat Enterprises, makers of home automation devices that really work"?"

In another space, I have been looking at places will deal with informal groups as individuals when ti comes to payments. So far I haven't found any.

We have the ability to form constantly changing, project based virtual groups, but no wya that I have found to reward such groups financially without creating an unneeded structure to do so.

I have a feeling that such a solution may help in the instance you bring up.

all the best,

drew

So why aren't there any devices?

President4242

Mon Dec 01 09:27:24 -0800 2008

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None of us know any Vulture Capitalists who are interested in turning everybody's home into an efficient version of Star Trek?

So why aren't there any devices?

zuzulo

Sun Nov 30 13:43:50 -0800 2008

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Some of us are. ;-)

My good friend just wrote an open source Zigbee firmware stack and i have, among other things, been integrating a commercial automation package which will contain only open source components intended for hotels and office buildings. Pilot installations have been saving between 20 and 40% on gross energy costs.

And once this stuff is finished, because it will be all open, there is nothing to stop you from using it at home. Strangely enough, in this particular market making everything open doesnt seem to be a problem - no one wants to do it themselves anyway. Especially in a commercial environment where bugs are potentially critical to your businesses survival, you want someone to blame when things go wrong.

Anyway, this stuff is going open. Taking a bit because we have had to build almost all the required components from scratch to avoid infringing on all this irritating intellectual property out there. I would say home use would be reasonable in ~18 months.

Going to have to pay for IP anyway, no?

Mathinker

Mon Dec 01 01:44:45 -0800 2008

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How much are you going to have to pay the ZigBee aliance to use the trademarked term "ZIgBee" and to get certification?

Their website makes it look like $3.5K minimum.

My take on automation

President4242

Mon Dec 01 09:25:41 -0800 2008

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I've got a huge investment in X-10/Insteon, and completely agree.  If there was a cheap 802.11x solution @ X10 prices, I'd go for it tomorrow.

But here's a minimum list for me, that would be required:

1.  $10 dimming light switch

2.  $10 120V 15 amp Relay Switch

3.  $20 120V dual outlet module

4.  $75 240V single outlet module

5.  $30 dry contact output relay

6.  $30 NO contact input sensor

7.  $50 Universal RF remote

8.  $50 Universal IR remote

Insteon - your sources?

wowbagger

Mon Dec 01 10:33:10 -0800 2008

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What has been your experience with Insteon? Where are you getting it, and at what kinds of prices? Have you any experience with integrating the control into Linux?

Insteon - your sources?

President4242

Mon Dec 01 11:22:38 -0800 2008

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Online and sporadic- usually from Smarthome, but other suppliers as well.

Due to this, I've only got 2 Insteon modules.  That, and my 1968 house isn't exactly RF friendly- too many of the walls are chicken-wire & plaster instead of drywall.

 About 3x the cost of X10 though.  Mr. House works fine for Linux Control- on the serial level, Insteon is X10, but with return signal, much like A10.

 Homeseer works find for Windows with Insteon.

My take on automation

deek

Mon Dec 01 18:18:11 -0800 2008

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Back in my uni days, over a decade ago, I did a thesis on communications over power lines and home automation.  From my research, it looked like CEBus (Consumer Electronics Bus) was the up and coming standard for home automation.  There were many hardware manufacturers on the CEBus standards council, so I expected this to be eventually integrated into household appliances.

I've got no idea what the current status of CEBus is.  It may be worth looking into.

There's another home automation, with a very similar name:  C-Bus.  It was developed by Clipsal Integrated Systems, and has a decent international install base.  Unfortunately, the protocol is closed, so you really have to rely on what Clipsal provide.  Still, I think they'll have the products you need to automate what you want.