Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Thomas Lord

Sun Nov 30 19:58:27 -0800 2008

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I don't know about "clearly separating the issue of recreational narcotic [sic] use and addiction treatment."

As a minor technical point, calling pot a narcotic is a stretch.

More importantly, check out the Guardian's coverage. The suggestion there is that the pot measure went down because the Swiss wish to not become "another Amsterdam" -- e.g., a somewhat shady tourist destination that attracts a particularly boorish lot.

I like the interpretation that says the Swiss aren't so much ideologically opposed to recreational pot use as they are strategic and open-minded in understanding the significance of their law-craft.

Read the Wikipedia content on "Legality of cannabis", subsection "Switzerland". Given things like "tolerated covert pot shops" and "spotty enforcement" I can see people looking at the trade-off between further liberalizing the situation vs. not becoming the next "spring break / girls gone feral" kind of tourist destination.

Cities and even neighborhoods in the Bay Area are in a similar bind. As you must know pot has a strange legal status around here. Possession (up to an ounce) is a misdemeanor, there's a lot of tradition, it's widely tolerated, we have the strangely awkward "medical marijuana" laws (with licensed retailers and everything), you can walk through the right streets and pretty reliably catch a whiff, and yet, of course, the feds beg to differ. Now, at the level of a neighborhood, a mini-version of the Swiss question arises: do we welcome or fight the zoning of a state-licensed pot dispensary in our neighborhood? Most everyone in most 'hoods where I am would agree that such dispensaries ought to be permitted but there's a strong NIMBY reaction because the legally strange status in the larger context makes problems. Do you want to invite a bunch of frat boys to your neighborhood? Or some street hustlers with "patient cards"? Do you want the traffic? The increased odds of a strangely violent robbery? You'll only get those problems because the surrounding, well-connected territory won't be bound by your rules -- they won't have dispensaries or such a tolerant environment. So, people will flock to you. Oh what fun.

I'm all for the regulated legalization of pot but I have taken political action against having any dispensaries in our town (Berkeley) at all. It puts the city at too much risk on so many different levels that it's ridiculous. It's an attractive nuisance in some ways and just a big, needless provocation in other ways. I think that with some creativity we can serve bona fide patients at least as well, probably better, without the problems. As for recreational use, our local enforcement practices seem not too out of whack and the larger battle has to be fought at a higher level of government.

Perhaps the Swiss were voting with similar thinking in mind.

-t

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

rubycodez

Sun Nov 30 20:10:20 -0800 2008

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narcotic is a legal definition, not a dope connoisseurs. 

 

Even hemp is a narcotic under Swiss law, if narcotic extracted from it.  Otherwise, its just plant matter.

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Thomas Lord

Sun Nov 30 20:49:25 -0800 2008

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Right, narcotic has a common english meaning and also a legal meaning -- and they differ. The legal meaning is a stretch and its manipulation uses the common english meaning as a lever for populist appeal. So, it's worth questioning the legal definition.

-t

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Richard Sexton

Sun Nov 30 21:36:26 -0800 2008

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Turkey is a narcotic. Addictive drugs like speed are not.

I've seen pot growing openly on windowsills in Geneva with no attempt to hide them, and that was a decade ago. They're much less uptight about it there and in Germany (for example).

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Thomas Lord

Sun Nov 30 22:24:51 -0800 2008

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I don't understand why people eat turkey other than force of habit.

-t

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

rubycodez

Sun Nov 30 23:12:04 -0800 2008

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Turkey?  when I was young that meant a fake capsule passed off as illegal drug. 

 

Narcotic properly only refers to opioids.

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Richard Sexton

Mon Dec 01 05:05:15 -0800 2008

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No, narcotic properly means "sleep inducing". Narc - narcolepsy - sleep, remember? Not "addictive". Hashish was available OTC until 1937 as a solid and tincture. A "narcotic good for migraines and womens troubles" and endorsed by Queen Victoria. It was the best non-opiate narcotic. There were other white powders used for inducing sleep in the day, but by comparison they left you feeling like hell in the morning and hashish didn't.

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

rubycodez

Mon Dec 01 08:25:06 -0800 2008

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that's just more "common usage", the word has specific meaning in medicine, an opioid

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Richard Sexton

Tue Dec 02 05:41:04 -0800 2008

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It doesn't mean opiate per se. It's "a" usage, de facto, but is absolutely not the definition of the word.

http://www.answers.com/topic/narcotic

n.
An addictive drug, such as opium, that reduces pain, alters mood and behavior, and usually induces sleep or stupor. Natural and synthetic narcotics are used in medicine to control pain.
A soothing, numbing agent or thing: “There was the blessed narcotic of bridge, at the Colony or at the home of friends†(Louis Auchincloss). adj.
Inducing sleep or stupor; causing narcosis.
Of or relating to narcotics, their effects, or their use.
Of, relating to, or intended for one addicted to a narcotic.

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

Thomas Lord

Mon Dec 01 10:15:51 -0800 2008

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I think the contemporary common language meaning is more like "sleep inducing, analgesic, and potentially addictive in ways that sudden withdrawal can cause death -- except not including alcohol."

Pot can be sleep inducing and an analgesic. It can even be addictive in the modern sense of giving rise to users who get into trouble caused by their use yet have trouble breaking out of the problematic use. But unlike a serious H. or booze or percocet habit, suddenly quitting pot doesn't cause organ failure and such.

In that sense, "Turkey is a narcotic" and "I can't see why anyone eats turkey other than out of habit" is a joke. Well, the narcotic part is a joke. I'm just not very fond of turkey, I've started to decide. The one's they breed for the "holiday season" are often not very good. The tryptophan content is obnoxious. Even a really good Turkey has an awkward flavor to work with. They're hard to cook right without over or under-cooking them. They're easy to food poison yourself with.

I'm just not fond of the turkey.

-t

"recreational pot use"

tert

Mon Dec 01 11:06:36 -0800 2008

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I agree with your doubts about this label. I was an occasional pot smoker in college, which is an emotionally difficult time. But I didn't become a heavy user until my mid-40's, when I ran into some intractable family/emotional problems (massive rejection on all sides). If it wasn't for "recreational pot use" at that time in my life, I would probably be an alcoholic by now.

I think any "recreational pot use" that is more than intermittent is usually related to lack of better things to do with one's time. Ditto for drinking beer more than occasionally (I recently took up the hobby of homebrewing). In short, it's minor medication for minor personal problems. We all have them. Heavier use indicates less-than-minor problems.

Bottom line: don't go passing judgement on other peoples' behavior, unless it harms others directly. It serves no purpose, and is a form of bullying.

"recreational pot use"

Carl

Tue Dec 02 03:17:35 -0800 2008

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Good for you. You're a lot better off than being an alcoholic :)

As a resident of Amsterdam, I'll choose pot-smoking americans over binge-drinking englishmen anytime. Stoned people are rarely loud, agressive and obnoxious, whereas the drunk ones can really mess up your city, especially in large groups.

Swiss Heroin Law (Update)

ssclift

Mon Dec 01 19:29:28 -0800 2008

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I lived there for 6 years, big fan of the Swiss.

Zurich became a tourist destination for heroin users during its brief period of legalization there.  The scene took a long time to clear up and when I was there (to 2002) there's was park near the Landesmuseum where you still really had to watch your step (needles).

Swiss politics moves slowly, is full of very well informed debate, is occasionally incomprehensible to those for whom it is not a full-time hobby, but usually comes to very, very good decisions. :)

I've lived in the Netherlands as well.  Pot's a tourist trap.  I get the impression (also from a London cop I knew) that it's just not worth the bother to enforce in most of Europe, but a good excuse to get an idiot off the street if they are causing a bother and just happen to have some...