Redesigning Social Security

Fri Nov 07 16:49:00 -0800 2008
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Several years ago, President Bush proposed privatization as a means to reform the US Social Security system. The debate that followed showed that while most Americans were highly skeptical of privatization, there was a lack of consensus regarding how to frame the problem.

Since a problem is unlikely to be solved before it is well understood, I wrote this essay as an exercise in understanding the fundamental flaw in the US Social Security system. If we can agree on the problem, then perhaps the solution becomes obvious (though not necessarily easy).

Redesigning Social Security

Matt Fulkerson

1 Social Security Design Flaw

The US Social Security system has a built-in design flaw relating to fluctuating age demographics. The system is designed to pay retirees the same amount per person, with adjustments for inflation, from one generation to the next. If the population of a given generation swells relative to the rest of the population, it is inevitable that the system will produce a big surplus while that generation is employed, followed by a big crunch at retirement.

The fixed-payout-per-person model, considered alone, will not necessarily lead to an inevitable big crunch. The other key ingredients are the Social Security Trust Fund coupled with the requirement that the federal government not run a surplus. These ingredients lead to inequity among the generations.

2 Generational Inequity

Generational inequity arises from the following characteristics of the current Social Security system.

  • Fixed payout per person
  • Unequal population distribution among generations
  • Existence of the Social Security Trust Fund
  • No federal government net operating surplus

The net result is that more populous generations receive more from the system and less populous generations receive less.

The current Social Security system operates roughly in the following manner. Workers pay social security tax, and the amount they receive at retirement is based on how much was paid into the system. Any surplus funds are invested in the Social Security Trust Fund. The money invested is quickly spent by the federal government.

Let us examine the most rosy scenario where the non-social-security deficit is zero, and a more populous generation is succeeded by a less populous generation. (Presumably, it is already understood that any non-zero deficit increases the tax burden of future generations.) Throughout the working years of the more populous generation, a social security surplus will be generated. That surplus reduces the tax burden of the more populous generation, due to the requirement that the federal operating budget must not run a net surplus. When the more populous generation retires, the social security surplus will turn into a deficit, and the less populous generation must pay higher taxes as retirees draw down the Social Security Trust Fund. The less populous generation gets stuck with the bill.

Contrary to popular perception, the Social Security Trust Fund is not really an investment. Rather, the Social Security surplus is used to make up a tax shortfall during the working years of a more populous generation. The Trust Fund effectively becomes a vehicle for transferring the burden of a tax shortfall on to less populous future generations.

3 Transparent Solution

There are many possible convoluted solutions to the inequity problem. However, one solution stands out as being particularly transparent, and is therefore more likely to be readily acceptable to Americans of all ages.

Social Security could operate on a total-fixed-payout-per-generation basis rather than a fixed-payout-per-person basis, while avoiding any Social Security surplus altogether. This means that a more populous generation would pay lower social security taxes and receive proportionately lower retirement benefits. Such a system would completely eliminate the Trust Fund and the accompanying generational inequity. A more populous generation would be well aware that they were paying lower Social Security taxes and could take action to increase personal retirement savings. A less populous generation would be squeezed a little more during its working years, but could expect to receive a higher level of retirement benefits in return. The level of retirement benefits should be low enough so that the burden on the least populous generation is not too large.

4 Convoluted Solution

It is also possible to keep the current system, but adjust for generational inequity. For example, taxes on a more populous generation’s retirement benefits could be raised. However, absent any understanding of the generational inequity issue, the higher taxation level would lead to a perception that the more populous generation of retirees is getting a raw deal. Thus, a transition to the transparent solution is preferable as it makes the issue of generational inequity explicit.

5 How To Understand Social Security

We have seen that the Social Security Trust Fund is not a true investment. Rather, it has the effect of transferring the tax burden from a more populous generation on to future generations.

Social Security is really a compact between workers and retirees. Current workers agree to support current retirees and expect that future generations will continue the tradition.

This is not how Social Security is most commonly viewed, but the common view of Social Security as a personal investment leads to general confusion and a lack of understanding of generational inequity. As such, any attempts to privatize Social Security should be resisted as an unnecessary blurring of lines between a social program and private investment. Rather, the appropriate topic of debate for society is the desired level of Social Security benefits.

Redesigning Social Security
Fri Nov 07 19:29:44 -0800 2008
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I believe you are skipping a big question.  What is Social Security's purpose?

Is it meant to be a suppliment to other retirement savings and investments?  Or is it meant to be the primary resource for retired persons?

It was originally designed to be the former, but has ended up being the latter.

Until we answer that question, the rest is moot.

The way I always looked at it, as taught by my grandparents, was this.

Your primary savings is your home.  Don't move around a lot and buy a house.  Pay it off over the years, keep it well maintained and it will be your best investment.  Other investments include:

  • What you can get out of your company in the way of pension, 401(k), 403(b) or other retirement plan.  Always contribute the maximum, especially if they provide matching funds.
  • Savings in the way of CDs & bank accounts
  • Investments, such as stocks or bonds.
  • Well educated, well employed children and grand children to help out.
  • Social Security

By the time people are ready to retire, assuming 65+, the house is usually much larger than they need or are comfortable with.  With no more kids in the house, it is time to downsize and head to either Florida or Arizona -- or anywhere else warm.  Sell the house and buy a condo or prefab in a retirement village with all your friends.

The orignial Social Security Act in 1935 was, to quote President Roosevelt, "frame a law which will give some measure of protection to the average citizen and to his family against the loss of a job and against poverty-ridden old age".   The preamble reads (emphasis added):

An act to provide for the general welfare by establishing a system of Federal old-age benefits, and by enabling the several States to make more adequate provision for aged persons, blind persons, dependent and crippled children, maternal and child welfare, public health, and the administration of their unemployment compensation laws; to establish a Social Security Board; to raise revenue; and for other purposes.

Your contention that "Social Security is really a compact between workers and retirees. Current workers agree to support current retirees and expect that future generations will continue the tradition." is a matter of personal opinion.  It was, at no time, ever sold as such.  Workers do NOT have an option to opt-out of the process.  It is a mandatory tax and forced retirement benefit system, and a very inefficient one at that.

Payouts were specifically tied to the amount of money paid into the system by the individual.1

Nor was it designed to be universal, as it originally exempted several classes of workers.

I would personally like to see an option where individuals are able to opt-out of the system.  Private investment can, and consistently has, done better at investing savings for retirement.

1 Social Security Act of 1935, Title II, Section 202

Redesigning Social Security
Fri Nov 07 19:48:38 -0800 2008
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You seem to have fallen for the propaganda that the so-called trust fund is some kind of legitimate investment that will actually yield a non-zero return.

The trust fund is invested in T-bills.  There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with that; if T-bills are an OK investment for private investors, they should be OK for the trust fund as well.

The problem is that they aren't real T-bills.  They are "special" (read "phony") T-bills that are not actually negotiable financial instruments, and cannot be sold on the open market.  While normal T-bills are backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, the T-bills in the trust fund are backed by... nothing whatsoever!

If the US Goverment were to start defaulting on normal T-bills, there would be an economic disaster the likes of which the world has never seen.  If they default on these phony T-bills in the trust fund, nothing different will happen than if they did not default on them.  Either way, they'll simply have to pay social security benefits out of the general fund, or cut benefits.

Congress has stolen the money that was supposed to be in the trust fund, and used it for purposes entirely unrelated to social security, with no plan for paying back the money later.  It's just a giant con intended to make people think that the social security system is on a solid footing, when in fact it is supported by nothing but wishful thinking.

All the gloom and doom scenarios we hear about what will happen when the trust fund dries up are actually wildly optimistic, because the trust fund has *already* dried up and blown away.

Redesigning Social Security
Fri Nov 07 19:57:30 -0800 2008
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Why do you think I said I wanted to opt-out?  Because I don't believe the program is solvent and won't be there in any usable form when I'm eligible.

Or, since it isn't solvent now, word will get out and the whole system will disappear in a puff of logic.

And, of course, the reason they won't let people opt out is because the entire thing would collapse when people realized there was no money in there.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 00:57:10 -0800 2008
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Sorry, Charles, my comment was on the article, not in response to your comment.  I must have hit the wrong "reply" button on the page.

I agree with you regarding both the desirability as an individual of opting out, and the likelyhood that opting out will ever be allowed.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 05:07:56 -0800 2008
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I think you need to read it again.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 09:46:18 -0800 2008
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While normal T-bills are backed by the full faith and credit of the US government, the T-bills in the trust fund are backed by... nothing whatsoever!

I hadn't heard about this before. Can you please point me to more information?

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 13:19:29 -0800 2008
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A quick search didn't turn up anything official, but they are non-marketable T-bills, so they can't be sold to another parties.  They also apparently don't have a maturity date like normal T-bills.

http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/12/01/why-trust-fund-bonds-are-indeed-different

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 13:40:55 -0800 2008
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Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 17:48:16 -0800 2008
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Wow, I'm impressed that not only do they openly admit that they are only buying "special" T-bills, but actually have the temerity to tout that as an advantage!

Savings

Fri Nov 07 21:20:11 -0800 2008
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Social security was "sold" to the public at a time when the traditional forms of savings had been wiped out by speculation, economic malfeasance and irrational exuberance. And the same thing is happening right now, this is version two, gold release. People's homes that they were paying off or paid off were lost, because they couldn't pay taxes or the "liquidity crunch" manufactured at the time made it impossible for them to keep up payments so the properties got auctioned off, the "legal" transference of real wealth upstream (both sides of my family lost their farms for instance). Stocks people got suckered into buying lost all worth, or most of it. Savings accounts in banks went poof-arama as thousands of banks dissolved. Even trying to save specie was made illegal and government literally confiscated gold and made it illegal to hold in most monetary forms. To say there was a loss of confidence in the private sector is an understatement, and in the public sector there was serious talk of revolt it got so sucky. There was nothing left, it became near impossible to save for the future, just dealing with the present was hard enough, and private charity could only do so much with such high rates of un and under employment. They were looking at millions of homeless and starving people shortly, so there was nothing much else to do then come up with some way to run the printing presses and stave off mass "social unrest". It went along with the big public works projects, and then the broken windows economic effort of WW2.

I'm not saying it was a great idea, but it was one of a small handful of ideas kept washington DC and wall street from being sacked and burnt to the ground, so it sure was a great idea for those folks at least. The bottom line is, there was no safe way to save for the future then, or now, not the way this system has been run and designed, because the money and other forms of portable wealth are based completely on [euphemism for bovine exhaust used in the garden]. You can *hope* this or that magical numbered xyz909kf1 account you have will be there for you, or that the property you are paying off now will be worth more and will be saleable sometime in the future, or that the local government won't go so far in hock building sports stadiums and such like that the taxes just destroy you, or that the cash you put into other forms of government money like bonds or treasuries will reflect at least parity purchasing power or even a little more at maturity, or that strict cash you save in low interest bankster CDs rates matches or exceeds inflation in the money supply (forget saving paper cash, strictly a constant net loss), but that is all it is, hope. Where do the payments from municipal bonds come from? Taxes on you or your children, ie, they need to be working a real job that hasn't been labor wage arbitraged off overseas and be making money else those bonds can default as well, witness all the states and local governments going bust now, needing loans, loans from someplace else of more implied debt on themselvges, bonds to cover previous bonds, which just rearranges the debt load, it never eliminates it.

I have no easy fix for saving for the future OTHER than investing in tangibles now. The first form of savings is correct, get the dang homestead paid off (and it really should be an adequate homestead with some land around it and big enough to re occupy with extended family in times of crisis, including food production) so you only need minimum cash to live on, and be prepared to not sell it but live in it forever if the market suckeths then. Look at how many people right now who would *love* to sell their house and only lose 5 figures on it or walk away even, and can't do it. If you think you might want "utilities" in the future but maybe not know where the cash might be coming from, just in case..just sayin'.. "invest" in some solar panels that last 30 years. And stuff like that, tangibles, real tangibles, stuff you can wrap your hands around, real wealth in various forms. I'm not seeing any form of paper or electronic promises of future wealth being viable, as there is absolutely zero guarantee they will either be there, or if there that they will result in purchasing power that you are expecting or have been lead to believe should be the case. Might happen...might not, and you have at least equal odds there near as I can see.

Stocks in particular are such a crazed wildcard that who knows, what were blue chips a short while ago are now cowchips. Same as back then, what was it, took to the mid 50s to get the levels back up to what they were pre-'29? P/Es today (very generally speaking) are still way over optimistic (to anyone not completely blitzed on crack), and there's always the greater fool theory, you have to rely on that primarily to translate those figures in the stock portfolio to hamburgers and the heating bill sometime. And there has to be a lot of them fools pretty soon, given today's demographics, and they will need to be *really* foolish... And that "full and faith and credit" of the US is sort of becoming..well, I don't want to say a joke, because none of this is very funny. Your other point still makes sense, the next generation, and them actually giving a crap about their elders, enough to help take care of them, either blood lines or by marriage or even a long stretch by straight friendship and charity.

So I agree with you on two points, and erect a big cautionary "wishful thinking ahead" sign in front of the others.

Right now I don't care, the best, the very most possibly optimistic *bestus* scenario they will be able to pull off is just run the printing presses to keep cutting the checks, and they are going to be doing that *anyway*, because that is all they can do at this point, so it is a net wash near as I can see. Between guaranteed government pensions, soc sec, entitlements, veterans care and so on..busted, flat broke already, so no sense crying over future spilt milk. Just have to see how it shakes out, I ain't counting on the electronic IOU promises though... take it if it shows up, oh well if it don't. I am guessing it will, given voting pressures and stuff..unless there is a conveniently timed whoops "plague" that accidentally wipes out a whole buncha folks. I've mentioned that before, it is known in doomer circles as the great cull theory of how governments will deal with excess populations, especially those past serf labor prime ages. And I don't think the idea can be immediately dismissed, drastic as it sounds. The 20th century saw over 100 million people wasted by their own governments, the precedent is there...

hahahahah! I'm actually a laughing fun guy in teh real world, I just likes scaring folks on the internets...I still believe what I wrote above though....

....a meeting at the 2009 council of tri-bilgewaters conference...a speaker with heavy eyeglasses is making a point at the podium...[voice mode=henry the k] "vell, vee must come up viss der zolution to all dese useless eaters...vee haff no ways to affords them by our models of resource depletion and adequate compensation for our esteemed stakeholders present, past the 2020 time frame...zuggestions? " ..a hand goes up, all eyes turn towards a scientist known in undergrad circles as Dr. UltimateDoooom.. "I believe we might have an answer that fulfills the operational mission while insuring plausible deniabilty..let me introduce you to our newest research creation, the avianebolaflupox..it started out as a fast spreading high mortality hemorrhagic tropical disease in...."

Redesigning Social Security
Fri Nov 07 22:03:47 -0800 2008
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I would personally like to see an option where individuals are able to opt-out of the system. Private investment can, and consistently has, done better at investing savings for retirement.

Plenty of people would "opt out" if they could, thinking that they will get a higher return. Or just wanting to spend their money now. And many will end up losing it all. Then they will have to be supported by the government anyway, unless you want to advocate euthanasia, despite not having contributed.

And with recent events it's hard to keep a straight face at "private investment can, and consistently has, done better at investing...."

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 05:24:22 -0800 2008
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And with recent events it's hard to keep a straight face at "private investment can, and consistently has, done better at investing...."

Feel free to try to point to any time since 1935 where a 40-year investment period was beaten by the return from Social Security.  The stock market is by no means the only method of investment, though it has consistently outperformed almost any other investment over any significant period of time.

Investing is a skilled profession and just because you can click a button on e-Trade and buy stock doesn't mean you should directly control all your retirement planning personally.

I would support an opt-out that redirected the withheld monies to a professionally managed account.  You're right about the "spend it now" mentality.  And the people that lost every dime with Enron, having 100% of their investments in one company, demonstrate the complete lack of understanding of the most basic fundamental concepts of investing.

Diversify.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 06:35:43 -0800 2008
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Social Security is not an investment.  It is a means to take money from current workers and distribute it to retirees.

Your idea of opting has severe consequences. If you are a young worker, who in their right mind wouldn't opt out.  As soon as the option to opt out exists, the seeds of doubt will spread and younger workers will have no choice but to assume that the next generation after them will opt out even more. The whole system will crash and burn within a decade. I'm sure that is the goal of people who were feeding the ideas to Bush when he brought up privatization.

No, it is better to recognize what Social Security really is.  It is simply a redistribution of wealth from workers to retirees so that the elderly can continue to live after the point in their lives in which they can no longer be competitive with younger workers.

Then we can have an honest debate about the proper level of Social Security, Rather than shouting matches between 5 different ideological camps, all of which fundamentally misunderstand the issue.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 08:51:09 -0800 2008
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OK, at least you're thinking.  Think about what will happpen to/with/in the financial markets if most or all workers opt out of Social Security.  IF they actually do invest to secure their retirements then it will be the financial markets that crash and burn, once significant numbers of the participants start withdrawing their money.  They are markets, not magic money machines.

Alternately, look at what "personal accounts" would be.  They would be "simply a redistribution of wealth from workers to retirees so that the elderly can continue to live after the point in their lives in which they can no longer be competitive with younger workers."  The same thing.  If retirees are supported then it is the workers who provide that support.  That is essentially inescapable.

I also find it offensively wrong to blame the Social Security system (or its participants) for the profligacy with which the Congress spends the trust fund.  The US borrows the trust fund money.  The US should, as a responsible steward, spend that money wisely.  That's just as true for the money in the trust fund as it is for the money obtained through selling Treasury Bonds.  If there's a flaw in how the money is spent (I can easily entertain the idea that "flaw" is far too mild a word) then that's a flaw in the way Congress behaves, not a flaw in the Social Security system.  It is at least disingenuous to try to characterize the trust fund money as being different from all the other borrowing done by the US government.  Typically, that pose is used as a mask for a desire to eliminate/destroy Social Security, the goal of the extreme right since Social Security was enacted.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 10:21:12 -0800 2008
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It feels like your reply is partly to me and partly to Charles.  I'll reply to the part which (I think) is directed to me.

If Congress was very wise, I agree that it would be possible to spend the Trust Fund surplus on wise things. These things would essentially act as investments in the sense that any EXTRA public investments in infrastructure might pay off for future generations and lead to future savings.

But the reality is that we probably have not kept up with infrastructure investments over the last few decades. Instead, the reality is that the Social Security surplus has been squandered, or at least simply used to make up a shortfall in taxes. It has not been invested in a way that will pay off for future generations so that they don't experience a large budget crunch. This is not an offensive point of view. It is the truth.

So, in fact, the system is to blame.  If it was designed as a money-in=money-out system, then the money designated for Social Security would on an annual basis in fact be spent on Social Security. If public infrastructure investments are needed, they would be paid for with taxes as appropriated by Congress.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 10:51:36 -0800 2008
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I guess we have to go with the Congress we have.  And with the results of the Congresses we had in the past.

This discussion probably isn't the place for it but I'd think a diuscussion of how Congress copuld begin making appropriate infrastructure investments would be (to me) very much pertinent and very much necesssary.

"This is not an offensive point of view. It is the truth."  Agreed.

The purpose of the trust fund (as it relates to Social Security) was to pre-obtain from the "baby boomers" the money needed to support the "Baby boomers" when they retired.  We had a population spike.  That's the truth.  The surplus was created to deal with one of the results of that truth.  The fault of Congress lies more in how it did not similarly provide for the future in terms of infrastructure and instead misspent money that could (and should) have gone for infrastructure.  Or, in starkest terms, misspent money, period.

It's surely possible to blame conservatives, blame liberals, or blame both.  Blame is a useless currency.  We need to have a wiser Congress.  That requires a wiser electorate - one that won't let the Congress continue to get away with the kind of crap they have in the past.  It seems we have some chance of having a wiser Congress (and President) starting next year.  I do not in any way claim that reduces the need for a wise electorate.  I do not assert or believe that the electorate is showing itself to even be wise enough.  When the electorate is wise enough, it will show.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 11:13:37 -0800 2008
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I agree that we have no one to blame but Ourselves/Congress/Liberals/Conservatives. But I think we also need to recognize the reality that mismanagement/poor-judgement/squandering/etc does occur in the real world, and work towards a system that does not rely on good intentions alone to function.

I also think Obama's election is chance to get things right, or at least better than they have been. That's why I'm bringing this up now.

A future project would be a discussion of the Constitution pointing out how Liberals and Conservatives only care about following certain parts of the Constitution.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 13:27:43 -0800 2008
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Replying to my part...

Think about what will happpen to/with/in the financial markets if most or all workers opt out of Social Security.  IF they actually do invest to secure their retirements then it will be the financial markets that crash and burn, once significant numbers of the participants start withdrawing their money.  They are markets, not magic money machines.

Except that people don't massivly withdraw funds even when they retire.  Most people want to also provide an estate for their heirs, which often includes securities and investments.  Hence the death/estate tax, where the government gets one more crack at what you've accumulated before it starts taxing your heirs on the exact same stuff.

Transitions from daily worker to retiree isn't like jumping off a cliff.  As retirement approaches investments change to less growth and more income/stability.  Stocks to bonds, VAs, CDs and cash.

And when money is withdrawn it is frequently spent.  Meaning it is taxed and some of it is invested again in a big circle.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 14:25:44 -0800 2008
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Perhaps people don't massively withdraw*.  But masses of people withdraw when those masses are all retirees depending on what they have saved for their retirement security.

But heck, show me the actual analysis.  :-)

*If people have invested in stocks and want (in large numbers) to convert those investments to non-stock annuities (for the greater assured income annuities provide) then they will sell stock massively when they retire.  When sellers outweigh buyers stock prices go down.  It's a market.

(And what are the heirs going to do?  If they sell then then it's the same, only delayed until the death of the retiree.)

BS on "Professionally Managed ..."

Sat Nov 08 11:15:11 -0800 2008
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I would have a serious problem with your "professionally managed account." I can just hear a "Professional Money Manager" telling me in late 1997: "No, you can't shift out of stocks and into bonds now. In the long term, stocks are the best and only place to keep your money." Then I would be helplessly watching the stock market crash and cursing the "Professionals". No thanks. Maybe most people are not competent at managing their own money. That doesn't justify what would effectively be confiscation.

BS on "Professionally Managed ..."
Sat Nov 08 12:18:53 -0800 2008
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You can always override a money manager with a direct order.  It is their job to give you their best opinion and research, but in the end it is YOUR money.

Depending on your profile (conservative, income, growth, etc.) is where they put you. Those are adjusted as your situation changes, and there are significant differences between a 20-40 year old, and someone nearing retirement, and someone IN retirement.

Almost NO ONE is put 100% into stocks.  It just doesn't happen because it is basically negligence.  Any money manager that said "...stocks are the best and only place to keep your money" would lose his license and get his pants sued off.  (And they have insurance, called E&O.)

Again, diversify, diversify, diversify.

BS on "Professionally Managed ..."
Mon Nov 10 08:53:22 -0800 2008
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 It just doesn't happen because it is basically negligence. 

If negligence in the favor of the money manager didn't happen, we wouldn't have a word for it.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 08:50:25 -0800 2008
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40-year investment period 

Cherry picking.  Most people, once they have gotten out of startup debt, don't have 40 years left to invest, and there are plenty of 5, 10, and 20 year periods where the stock market has been negative.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 09:03:38 -0800 2008
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I'm talking about forced savings via payroll withholding, exactly like Social Security does it.  They don't have a choice about taking the money out, just where to put it -- SS or managed market account.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 11:58:36 -0800 2008
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I'm talking about forced savings via payroll withholding, exactly like Social Security does it.  They don't have a choice about taking the money out, just where to put it -- SS or managed market account.

Even then, I'd worry about the folks who *happen* to have 3/4ths of their "managed market account" wiped out by a sudden need to retire due to cancer in a down year.

The market is far to volitile to depend upon for mission-critical applications.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 12:17:46 -0800 2008
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That isn't old-age retirement, which is what I'm addressing.  It is disability insurance, a different component.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 14:03:34 -0800 2008
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Old-age retirement is in effect disability insurance; it's what you turn to when "old-age", that set of disabilities that will affect everybody eventually, makes it impossible for you to work.  It is NOT about "enjoying life"- many people who still work enjoy life.

If it's still possible to work, then that person should; loads of cases of dementia concretia giving us wonderful roadside attractions to stop at on vacation attest to the life giving properties of continuing to work, even if it's only cementing a bunch of glass bottles together to make a work of art.

Anything else is a LUXURY- and I'm perfectly fine with leaving luxuries to the free market.  But we shouldn't regulate a huge portion of our population to starvation to do it.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 19:37:44 -0800 2008
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Well, we were dealing with Social Security, which really is two main programs: old-age retirement and disability retirement.  They're two sepearate programs.

But I agree with you on your assessment of work, luxury and necessity.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 05:04:36 -0800 2008
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I tackled only the question that I wanted to address, that part of the current system which is unfair if the population fluctuates. I have no problem with a separate debate over the level of Social Security benefits (should it be a supplement or the primary source of retirement income).

Social Security is "going bankrupt" precisely due to the reason I've outlined. The boomers are going to want to take out exactly what they put in plus interest. Well, the reality is that the surplus is already spent every single year, so there is no real investment. The Trust Fund is just an accounting gimmick. You can't double count the money so that you can both spend it and save it at the same time.

So, if you remove the artificial "investment" from the system, you find that what is left is system where money goes straight from current workers to current retirees. That part is solvent by definition.  Leave the current system in place, and you have a transfer of tax burdens that is causing the system to "go bankrupt".

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 08:59:41 -0800 2008
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Oh, come on.  If someone buys a corporate bond does not the corporation likewise spend the money?  In fact, the reason for the corporate bond is precisely to obtain money to spend. That money is just as "spent" as is the money in the trust fund.

In the case of the corporate bond the eventual redemption of that bond depends on the ability of the corporation to sell goods or services and make a profit.  In the case of Treasury Bonds the eventual redemption is based on the ability of the federal goverment to tax. 

All you can really say is that a government is not like a corporation.  Duh.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 10:23:15 -0800 2008
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I agree, but it is the future tax payers who will be stuck with the bill. That's the most important point that I am trying to convey.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 10:39:11 -0800 2008
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Future taxpayers are stuck with all the bills for all the things that have been funded beyond available revenue.  They are "stuck" with repaying the loans made to the trust fund because the trust fund was created in order to keep Social Security self-supporting in anticipation of the retirment of the "baby boomers."  The FICA taxes that created the trust fund have already been paid.  The taxes to repay the trust fund aren't paying for retirement, they're paying for whatever the trust fund money was spent on. 

When the trust fund was created it was created with the full expectation that it would be repaid when that became necessary.  There was no deception nor sleight-of-hand involved.  The Treasury borrowed, the Treasury must repay.  that's what the special bonds signify.  That future taxpayers have to repay the loans has no special significance for the trust fund beyond the requirement that future taxpayers have to repay all the bonds that have been issued.

This does affect the federal cash flow, but it is improper to blame Social Security or the retirees.  The blame goes to Congress, for so grossly overspending. 

Stated another way, it would be wholly wrong to "cure" the situation by defaulting on the trust fund.  It rather seems that those who most vocally declare that "there is no trust fund" are either the ones who would perpetrate such a default or are stand-ins for them.  For some very twisted reason they seem to believe that it is acceptable to default on those obligations.  Speculation on why they have that belief would simply insult them.  I don't mind insulting them for that belief, but such insults contribute nothing to understanding.  Let them state their reasons - if they care to and can.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 10:58:37 -0800 2008
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I wish I could convince you that I have no intention of wrecking Social Security, but this is the internet after all. We do not know each other personally.

It IS proper to blame the Social Security system. It is not proper to blame the retirees, but it is essential for them to understand that they have benefitted from a reduced tax burden due to balancing the budget with the Social Security surplus.

Basically, I'd like nothing more than you and Charles to understand what I am trying to say, because then we'd have a basis for debate on the issue.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 11:31:26 -0800 2008
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It appears your real argument is with the creation of the trust fund.  Instead, you'd either now have higher taxes or you'd reduce benefits as the "baby boomers" retire to keep the system in balance.

But we have the trust fund.  So my thinking and my approach recognizes that.  My approach would also have the effect of keeping the trust fund, in the future, at a minimum level.  In infinite time my approach pretty much would parallel your approach: income matches expenditures. 

My approach doesn't "throw up its hands" because the demographics fluctuate.  It would seem that such fluctuations will be inevitible.  I do not favor penalizing retirees just because a lot of other retirees were born around the same time they were born.  I do recognize reality: if Social Security is to be self-supporting then, over time, the taxes to support it and the benefits it pays have to match.  I think it was entirely proper for the Congress to provide for the retirement of the "baby boomers" as it did provide.  That the Congress was less wise overall then and snce then is a problem.  I do not see it as productive to blame that lack of wisdom on Social Security.

If Congress had at that time and since actually created a balanced budget then the trust fund would be an "investment," since the excess FICA taxes would have been surplus.  The reality being what it is any discussion of that is on the level of discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 12:16:24 -0800 2008
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So we need a transition period to phase out the Trust Fund. The role of AARP will be to increase the transition period because that is in the interest of its current members.

In the end, however, we need to be on a course that makes the Trust Fund irrelevant going forward. Because you are right, the fluctuations in demographics ARE inevitable, so we should change the system so that this inevitable fluctuation does not favor one demographic over another. We've tried and failed the first time through to use the Trust Fund as a real investment. No need to keep repeating our mistakes.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 11:03:52 -0800 2008
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Also, I agree with you that future tax payers are responsible for all forms of overspending and subsequent government borrowing. This is an even larger problem ($7 trillion vs. $3 trillion), but it too has a solution. Money-in=money-out, or pay as you go.

I just read the Wikipedia article on the Trust Fund, and in fact it says that it is an accounting scheme and not an investment.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 11:17:34 -0800 2008
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Wikipedia isn't the final arbiter of anything.  I've made some contributions to some Wikipedia articles myself and I think I have (probably in a discussion) myself said the turst fund is an accounting device. 

Social Security was desgned to be self-supporting, which I think means that all it spends has to come from FICA taxes.  Because there was a population spike the trust fund was created (or the taxes raised such that the trust fund attained a large size) so that t could be accumulated while the "baby boomers" were still working so that it would be there to pay the "Baby boomers" their retirement benefits.  So the trust fund is an accounting device to keep that true: FICA pays for SS. 

Whether or not the trust fund is an "investment" seems to not be pertinent to real issues.  The trust fund is an obligation of the federal government.  That obligation should be met.  If saying the turst fund is not an investment is cover for advocating default on that obligation then I am opposed.  If the obligation is honored then what the trust fund is called is pretty much immaterial.

If the idea is "Congress could at any time choose to default on the trust fund" then I think every reader of such a claim should mentally add to that "and I'm a spokesman for those who would favor such a Congressional default" as an implied part of the message.   In this case saying Congress might default is fairly equivalent to advocating that default.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 12:28:13 -0800 2008
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Ok, I'll revise my statement that the Trust Fund is not an investment. The Trust Fund is an obligation placed on future generations of tax payers to fund the Social Security System above and beyond the FICA tax. And therein lies the inequity problem in the face of fluctutating demographics.

I don't think we need to advocate defaulting on the Trust Fund, I'd just prefer that we cut benefits or raise FICA taxes so that we never have to draw it down. That would satisfy me and would force a compromise on the issue for a while. But I would hope that in the end everyone would see things my way :-) so that we have a permanent fix in place that is less subject to political manipulation/obfuscation.

I have some things to get done, so I might not reply for a while.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 14:15:32 -0800 2008
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The trust fund is an obligation on future generations only in the sense that the trust fund owns the bonds.  In that respect there is no significant difference between the trust fund and any other holder of Treasury bonds. 

If the trust fund is never drawn down then that is, from the point of view of the Social Security participants, identical to default. Unless you can explain how it is not.  (I can remember someone telling me "I'd rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it."  That's just a disguise put on "cheating you out of it.")

The trust fund represents, in large measure, the monies paid in by the "baby boomer" generation during their working years.  As they retire they are going to want/need the benefits from it.  When they are drawing these benefits the taxes paid by those still working will go to retiring the bonds (if we're lucky and the solution isn't to simply to pay them off by issuing ordinary treasury bonds.)  There is nothing I see about the "baby boomers" or about Social Security as a system that requires them to just forget the money.  There is a huge debt load being passed on to future generations.  There is no justification visible for selecting out the special bonds in the trust fund for non-payment.

Redesigning Social Security
Sat Nov 08 15:01:19 -0800 2008
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These bonds in all forms, if left to accumulate over the long term, are all a way to pass on tax obligations to future generations. It's all fundamentally the same problem.

I don't feel like expanding the discussion now, but philosophically I would not be opposed to expanding the money-in=money-out argument to apply to all government spending and taxation, with possibly some short term exceptions to an annually balanced budget.

I've already said why Social Security is special in section 2 of the essay.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 08:44:08 -0800 2008
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 Private investment can, and consistently has, done better at investing savings for retirement.

I was with you clear up until that last statement.  IF you are lucky, private investment can do a better job.  Lucky is that you retire and get your money into safe investments during a boom time.  It's as easy to show that private investment loses money as makes it, just cherry pick the years you are comparing.  1986-2008, you'd have been better off stuffing your money into a matteress, 1965-1999, no other investment would have done.

So while you're right in a way, you're also basically gambling with large numbers of old people starving.  Do you really want the people to serve the economy rather than the economy serving the people?

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 09:01:34 -0800 2008
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In January of 1986 the DJIA was at 1,500 and today it is at 9,000 which is 6x growth, minus inflation.  Sticking your money under a matteress would have given you a net loss of about 54% of your money's value, according to the inflation calculator.

If you start 'em when they first get working around age 20, and carry it thru when they retire at 67+, that gives you a 47 year span.  There is no 47-year period where the market didn't outperform straight t-bills.

Again, keep in mind I'm not talking about getting rich, just increasing your return over t-bills (SS) by 2% or 3%.  Over a career lifetime it could mean the difference between being able to retire or working until you die.

Redesigning Social Security
Mon Nov 10 12:02:31 -0800 2008
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I know far too many baby boomers whose 401k accounts are at 0 for the DJIA to be the whole story.  Heck, I know a couple of GI generation people who are getting foreclosed upon- because their investments-based retirement strategy over the last 60 years ended up negative.

The problem is the volatility of the investment, not the straight return.  For mission critical applications, one does not design a system based on a random number generator.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice

Sat Nov 08 06:58:56 -0800 2008
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Probably a dozen or more times, I've overheard or been involved in a typical conversation between an older adult and a young adult. Inevitably, the older adult is planning to draw Social Security benefits, but recognizes that the current system is unsustainable. So the advice to the younger adult is to start saving as fast as possible, because while Social Security will be available to the older adult at somewhere near the 100% level, it will be at 0% by the time the young adult retires.

Now the advice to save as much as possible is sound advice, regardless.  But that is not the point.  The point is that if the current system is corrected so that money in equals money out, it is fundamentally solvent. It is completely within our power, right now, to salvage Social Security (say at 75% of the current level) for any number of generations to come if we eliminate the false accounting of the Trust Fund and switch to a money-in = money-out system.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 09:18:49 -0800 2008
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Yes.  To permanently preserve Social Security it will be necessary, from time to time, to increase revenue, decrease benefits, or both.  That's Social Security as currently constituted: no general revenue used for retiree support.  It's self-supporting: FICA taxes pay for it.

How about this approach?  Keep Social Security exactly as it is now, with just one change.  Each year make a 50-year forward projection.  If the projection goes negative then reduce the next year's benefit level (computed exactly as now) by up to 1% (less, if the lesser reduction eliminates the projected deficit.)  The reduced benefit level (if there was a reduction) will become the basis for the next year's calculation: it's a permanent reduction.  Even if the 1% reduction does not remove the projected deficit limit the reduction to just 1%.  Reductions in future years (if needed - the economy could shift so that the current projection can be seen to have been unnecessarily pessimistic) can, cumulatively, eventually eliminate the deficit.

This is a "reduction in benefits," which some decry, in a knee-jerk fashion.  I think we agree on a basic concept: if Social Security is to be self-supporting (no general revenue used for retiree support) then it cannot spend more than it takes in.

You suggest 75% of the current level (which I assume is in some sort of "constant dollar" terms.)   If the 50-year projection I suggests continues to show a deficit then in 28 years the level will be down to 75% of current levels (again, assuming "constant dollar" levels.)  In 50 years the reduction would be to abut 60% of current levels.)

If the benefit level is inadequate then future voters, working through a future Congress, can institute a correction for that, possibly by again increasing the FICA tax level.  It is of course up to future voters and Congresses to determine just what "inadequate" means.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 10:38:04 -0800 2008
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I pulled the 75% number out of a hat. It was roughly meant to reflect how much strain the tempory increase in retirees will put on the system.

It sounds like we agree on the balance of money in and out issue.

I like your idea in the sense that it balances the Social Security budget with Social Security funds only. My only concern is that the means of achieving the balance is simple enough to be understood so as to minimize the knee-jerk reactions. In my opinion, it would be best to have a system that is designed to achieve a balance without the need for too many adjustments. The system should be inherently as fair as possible so we don't waste time debating the system every time the membership of AARP fluctuates significantly, for instance.

That said, I'm not too picky about the details of the system as long as the majority of people understand it and it doesn't lead to a transfer of obligations over time.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 11:06:15 -0800 2008
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"Fair" I can't provide*.  Adding an annual adjustment to me makes the system work using a simple idea and one that is automatic, so there is no need for annual debates over how to keep Social Security solvent.  The AARP (I'm a member) may or may not like the idea of such an adjustment.  If they don't they are really arguing more for the benefit of future retirees than for current ones.  It's not wrong of them to be concerned with future retirees but it ought to be quite plain that there's a large overlap between "future retirees" and "current workers."  The bottom line is that to keep the program "solvent" within its design definition it can be necessary to adjust either the revenue, the benefits, or both.  I don't think there is any justification for claiming that the AARP should not paricipate in any dialog.  I do not suggest that the AARP should dictate what is done.  I'd like to suggest that they (and all others) stick to reality.

I think that current workers would be well served by having it pointed out to them that the claims for personal accounts are merely that: claims.  Social Security is subjected to an annual analysis right now.  The "personal account" scheme pushed by Bush has not been subjected to a similar analysis.  Instead, we most typically see a claim made that every prospectus (stock or mutual fund) specifically disclaims: past results are used to predict the futue.  Arguing for relying on such a claim perpetuates the lack of analysis of personal accounts.  It's at least irresponsible to advocate replacing some or all of Social Security with a scheme that has not been analyzed similarly to how Social Security is analyzed each year. 

*"Fair" depends on the definition of "fair."  Typically a definition is chosen for how it favors whomever the writer wishes to favor.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 11:40:24 -0800 2008
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We are in 100% agreement that personal accounts are a terrible idea. They just blur the lines between Social Security and private investment. Charles and brouhaha were in favor of personal accounts above, not me. We already have 401Ks and IRAs for the private portion.

I'm not in principle opposed to AARP. My only concern is that what's fair for current AARP members is not necessarily fair for future generations. I don't want fair to be determined by the demographic which has the larger lobbying power.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 13:32:49 -0800 2008
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We're going about things from a different manner.

People need to be taken care of financially in their retirement years.  You seem to be saying it is primarily the job of the rest of society, using the Federal Government as a proxy.  Taxes are extracted from the current workers to pay for current retirees.  Trust the government, they'll take care of you.

I'm saying I would prefer to give people more of an option to provide for their own retirement, instead of relying on the government to do it for them.  A bit more self-reliance.

By saying "blur the lines between Social Security and private investment", you miss the point.  Both have the same purpose -- to provide for the individual during retirement.  They are just different vehicles and are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Which again, goes back to the main question of exactly what benefit level is SS intended to provide?

I do agree that SS should be self sufficient and the fraudulant accounting, false promises and raiding of the trust fund are unconscionable and need to be stopped.  That they are possible at all is a major flaw in the design of the system.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 15:18:55 -0800 2008
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All I'm saying is that if society comes to a consensus on the level of Social Security, it should be set up in a way that does not transfer a tax burden to future tax payers. That's it.

My objection to private accounts is not an objection to private saving or even an endorsement of the current level of Social Security. If society can agree that private accounts should be allowed at the level of 2% of contributions initially, then I'd prefer to take the 2% and use it as I see fit.

Private accounts have nothing to do with Social Security anyway. Lets change the language and call it mandatory 401K contributions instead.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 16:36:28 -0800 2008
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All I'm saying is that if society comes to a consensus on the level of Social Security, it should be set up in a way that does not transfer a tax burden to future tax payers. That's it.

I agree.

Private accounts have nothing to do with Social Security anyway.

Both are means to an end, not an end unto themselves.  The end is a financially stable retirement.  They are two paths to the same goal and need to be looked at together, since they can compliment each other.

Lets change the language and call it mandatory 401K contributions instead.

No, call it instead mandatory retirement savings instead.  A 401(k) is a specific retirement savings vehicle, like a 403(b), and the various forms of IRAs.

But, to address your primary question -- how do we set up Social Security so that it doesn't transfer a tax burden to future workers...

That would imply one thing.  That money in == money out.

To figure that out, you need to know several demographics.

  1. The retirement age where people start to draw.  Currently this is 65 - 67, depending on the year you were born.
  2. The average lifespan, or how long people will be drawing.  Currently this is about 78, plus or minus the year you were born in and your gender.
  3. Since Social Security is really a form of insurance, Congress should probably use proper actuarial tables and life insurance demographics.  Things like smoking, drinking, distance driven to work, type of work, family history of disease, etc.

So, let's make it easy and say the average draw is 78 - 66 or 12 years.

My grandfather (W9BEK, b. 1921), who just recently passed away, worked his entire life at the same company -- Continental Bank.  He did take a few years off for a stint in the Army during WW2, but resumed his career at the same bank afterward.  (There you go Prez -- lifetime employment!)

He started in the mail room and worked his way up to Vice President of Accounting before retiring early in 1978 after the accidental death of his youngest son.

His SS check was, when he died, $854 per month or just over $10,000 per year.  That doesn't take into account cost of living adjustments made during the time he started collecting SS (1986) or anything like that.

Now, assume the standard 12 years of draw, at $10,000 per year and you have a total draw of $120,000 for one person.

Assuming they work 45 years (age 20 to age 65), they would have to pay in $2,667 per year, every year to bank that $120,000.

This, of course, leaves out inflation and any interest earned on the money banked.  For simplicity I'll  assume they cancel each other out.

Which brings us back to my initial question -- how much is SS supposed to pay out?  Is it a supplement to other savings and investments, or is it the primary source of income.

With my grandfather, being an accountant and raised in the Great Depression, he was a tightwad.  :-)

With the help of my great-grandparents, he built the house in the 'burbs in 1950 and took a 15 year mortgage.  It was paid off on time in 1965.  He joked to me that his monthly train pass (he took the train to work all those years) cost more than his mortgage payment -- $85 / month vs $123 / month.

They later expanded the house, adding a garage, a bedroom, a living room and a porch as well as super-insulating.  The house cost $8,500 and was appraised recently at over $500,000, though mostly because of the lot size and location.

SS was a supplement to his company pension, my grandmother's SS ($350 / month), and his investments.  Medicare (a different article totally) covers their health care, with his retirement benefits handling prescriptions and 100% of what Medicare doesn't.  They had (and still have) zero debt.  The only thing they ever financed was the house.

Now, I can guarantee you that he didn't pay in $120,000 during his career.  His top salary in 1977 was about $37,000 which was a bit over double the national median of $16,000.  The rates of FICA withholding over the years he was working ranged from 1.0% to 4.9%, matched by his employer so it ranged from 2% to 10%.

The problem is, his salary change wasn't linear.  In his latter years the raises were proportionally larger, so he wasn't making $37,000 for long.  Now, I could do lots of math but my best guess is he paid in about $28,000 over the years in FICA.

He drew for 19 years, about $150,000 trying to account for COLA, etc.

That means a deficit of $122,000 that he drew but didn't pay in.

Now, if you take that $28,000 he paid in and divide it by the 19 years he withdrew you get $1,475 per YEAR.

Which brings us right back to the point of HOW MUCH do they need to draw?  $1,475 won't get you a refrigerator to use the cardboard box to live in.

My grandfather was the ideal case: no debts, house paid long ago, pension & health insurance from job, savings & investments supplemented by SS.  And he pretty much needed $10,000 per year to not sell his house and drain his investments dry.

So, to sum up, saying money in == money out would be easy.  Doing it is going to be very tough and is directly dependent on what the benefit level is and what the purpose of SS is.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 19:20:30 -0800 2008
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Thanks for sharing your grandfather's story.

--------------------------------------------------------------

It is not your grandfather's money-in which equals your grandfather's money-out, though.  The money your grandfather paid in each year went directly to Social Security payments that very same year.  By the time your grandfather was receiving SS payments, we'd had so much inflation that the current workers' FICA payments were enough.

In fact, I think we still might have a surplus in FICA taxes today, though that is supposed to dry up pretty quickly over the next few years. We have to cover the future deficit somehow, either by cutting payments in the future, raising taxes (FICA or otherwise),

When I retire in 30-some years, if SS still is in operation, the workers at that time will be paying me to retire.  Even if we draw down the Trust Fund (paying for the entire draw down by raising taxes), and do not adjust SS benefits at any time in the future, at the point when the Trust Fund is exhausted there will still be money coming in, and so there can still be money being paid out. I don't know where people are getting the myth that SS is going to go from current payments to $0 per month by the time you or I retire. That just is not the case.

Now, if we switched to money-in=money-out immediately, there would be little affect until the number of retirees starts to grow substantially (which it is projected to do). At that point, we'd have a couple of options. The obvious ones are cutting benefits in proportion to the growing number of retirees, or raising FICA taxes to cover the difference. If we elect to raise FICA taxes, then after the number of retirees begin to recede (if it ever does), we'd be back to a surplus, and money-in=money-out would tell us to either lower FICA taxes or raise SS payments.

So keeping current benefits indexed to inflation is possible, but it places a larger FICA tax burden on current workers. If SS payments are increased once the number of retirees recedes, then the net result has been an expansion in SS benefits. If SS payments are held constant per person when the number of retirees recedes, then the workers who had their FICA taxes raised will not receive any benefit for the amount their taxes were raised.

So money-in=money-out requires some decisions to be made regarding benefit levels or something equivalent like age eligibility. But the changes are on the order of 10%, not 90%.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 17:28:00 -0800 2008
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I understand the concept of "current payer", where the monies paid out now are paid in now.  I also understand the issue of the population bulge, where we will soon have more people drawing than paying in because of the post-WW2 baby boom.

The answer was the Trust Funds, where excess monies collected when the Boomers were working were saved for this rainy day.  The problem was the mandate that the monies be invested in "special" U.S. T-bills, creating what will soon be an insurmountable debt which is payable real soon now.

I'm not convinced the answer isn't simply requiring a certain, large percentage of the excess monies be kept in cash and off limits for anything else except paying SS benefits.

However, I do believe we are past the point of more in than out, so while that may have worked 20-30 years ago, we are in a pickle now.  The answer is going to be either increase the income (more or different taxes) or decrease the outgo (decrease benefits).

Age eligibility is an option.  What was the average lifespan and average working span of people in 1940 (65?) and what is it now (77?)?  Another question is should it cover everyone?  When implemented SS benefits excluded several categories of workers.  Should it be universal?

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 18:40:19 -0800 2008
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Keeping excess monies as cash: I guess that was Gore's lock box plan. But like you said, it's too late now.

I guess if the entire $2 trillion in the trust fund is drawn down within the next decade or two, the silver lining is that the additional annual deficit that will cause is a lot smaller than the current rate of increase of the national debt. Here's one way to look at it. The Trust Fund represents potential for conversion to ordinary nation debt-- there is just a lot of uncertainty regarding how long the conversion will take.

The $1000 per month figure you mentioned in your previous post strikes me as not enough for most retirees to make ends meet. For that reason, it is probably unlikely that we'll see a cut in payment amounts. So it is probably inevitable that the Trust Fund will be drawn down to zero, at which point we'll achieve money-in=money-out until the surplus replenshes the Trust Fund and we repeat the whole cycle. Sigh.

As Brad has pointed out, the $2 trillion Trust Fund is dwarfed by the rest of the national debt ($8 trillion). In the end, we'll have to figure out a way to deal with the $8 trillion (soon to be $10 trillion) debt.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 14:42:32 -0800 2008
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"I don't want fair to be determined by the demographic which has the larger lobbying power."

Nor do I, but as far as I know the AARP position is aimed just as much at assuring future benefits as it is to assuring current benefits. 

That doesn't make them right or wrong, but if it's true then you have mischaracterized them. 

I oppose "personal accounts."  As presented by Bush they'd not apply to me nor directly affect me in any manner.  I'm opposed to them because they are a deliberate cheating of the younger workers who are supposedly going to be the beneficiaries of them.  My position isn't one of selfish interest, it's one of caring for future retirees.  I think that the AARP and its other members may be similarly motivated. In a forum such as this, where they don't participate, it's easy to misrepresent them and have that go unchallenged.

Of course I've seen how politicians operate.  The Bush guarantee to me as a retiree that implementing personal accounts would not affect me in any way was good only until (if it happened) personal accounts were implemented.  Once that occurrred Bush (or his successor) would have no hesitation at all in reducing my benefits, arguing that they were too high and couldn't be afforded.  Note that my major objection is to the cynical deceit involved in telling me (and others) that implementing personal accounts wouldn't affect my benefits, so I could go along and be safe.  Maybe, realistically,  benefits will have to be reduced.  ((I proposed doing precisely that.)  If that's so, OK.  I am highlighting and objecting to the deceit.

Perhaps a "personal accounts" advocate could tell me just how committed (personally) to current retiree benefits not being reduced that "pesonal account" advocate is.  100%?  Strongly?  Weakly? Not at all?  I suspect the latter.  Again, that's OK, but don't expect me to be happy about being lied to.  And, if you somehow recognize that I'm being lied to maybe the next step is to check to see if those who would be the participants in the "personal account" scheme are being lied to.  It's there if you look for it.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 15:25:08 -0800 2008
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Hey, at least we agree on personal accounts :-). Lets start calling them mandatory 401K contributions instead.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 16:11:34 -0800 2008
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Mandatory "invest with the herd" accounts.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 16:45:00 -0800 2008
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Considering what backs the SS payments now (not much), I'm 100% for the government guaranteeing current SS benefits at their current level and current COLA formula for anyone age 60 and over.

Pay for them however they have to.  We made a promise to the older generation and it darn well should be kept.  But we need to recognize that the system is doomed to failure and we need to be honest with the younger generation.

As a younger (40), personal account advocate, I'd fight tooth-and-nail to keep current retiree benefits where they're at until they all die.  Assuming, that is, we can work out some form of personal account.

Hey, if we can find $1 trillion for war and $700 billion for the banks, and a possible $50 billion for the auto industry, we can find money to keep our promise on Social Security.  (Ummm...how much was that last stimulus check?  Add that in there, too.)

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 18:35:59 -0800 2008
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The problem with private accounts, as far as I can tell, is that every penny you invest in your private account diminishes the amount of available funds for paying the current retirees.  That is, while it would be a boost for those paying into private accounts, it would accelerate the insolvency of the main part of Social Security (the non surplus part that effectively is sent straight to current retirees).

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 19:34:19 -0800 2008
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Hey, I'm one of the people who would be affected.  Forget me. 

Ignore side effects on current retirees for a while.  What really needs to be investigated is how the scheme would work for those who participate.  The advocates glibly claim it would succeed.  They don't demonstrate that.  They don't even give details.  I see it as a government-mandated, government-managed (in some manner) bubble scheme. Bubbles burst.  This bubble would burst.  When it burst it would take down not just the participants in the "personal accounts," it would take down all investors.  That would be far worse than the current crisis.  What prevents it being a bubble, what prevents is bursting?  That's not just detail, it is vital detail.  "They" gloss over that entirely.  (Note that anything they describe that is designed to prevet bubble behavior will be in direct contradiction to their "people can manage their own money" claim.  Further note that anything designed to prevent a "run" on the accounts will also serve to lock participants in when the accounts are cratering.  Do "they" ever discuss that?)

If (as I claim) the scheme won't work for the younger workers, if it fails on its own, then there's no need to consider it further.  "They" claim that a general scheme, with substantially all workers investing in it, will provide steady positive returns.  That would mean, apparently, that in addition to the returns currently extracted by all the current investors there would be a huge amount of additional returns that would go to the retirees.  Really?  Everybody wins?  In markets?  Every time we've had an "everybody wins" market scenario the next thing has always been everybody loses.  What magic is there in this scheme that avoids that?  

OK, not quite everybody loses.  When the bubble bursts its never the small investors who avoid loss  - and it is the small investors, the workers and retirees, that we're concerned with here.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sat Nov 08 19:13:49 -0800 2008
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The way SS is structured the benefits all come either directly from FICA taxes or from the interest earned on the trust fund amounts.  The trust fund is already FICA-derived, so using that to pay benefits fits within the above.

While many appear comfortable with simply declaring that the system is "doomed to failure" or the like making such a claim isn't the same as demonstrating it.

I enthusiastically endorse being honest with the younger generation.  The "personal account" advocates have yet to start.  They provide propaganda, not information

For example, every mutual fund prospectus I have ever seen warns that past results do not guarantee future performance.  Most "personal account" advocates nonetheless rely on past performance to predict the success of "personal accounts."  And they tap dance.  They'll glibly recite a claim about past performance in the stock market but when things like the current drop in stock prices are mentioned they'll just as glibly say "Oh, well, not all of the investments have to be in stocks." So the stock market returns are used to promise marvelous future performance yet without even blinking they'll say that not all investment need be in stocks so events such as the recent decline can be ignored. (If any advocate finds what I say is wrong I hope that advocate will provide his alternate view.)

I don't care to argue such things.  What I will point out, once again, is that for the current Social Security system there is an annual assessment made of its possible future status.  It is on such assessments that most "personal account" advocates rely.  So far, though, the advocates of "personal accounts" have made no assessment of comparable rigor.  (They are stuck in the "only propaganda" mode.)  It is nearly useless to try to discuss "personal accounts" with them honestly because they as yet have not made an honest proposal.

Most advocates, it seems, are unaware that Bush said (At least in Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico) that retirees would be forbidden access to their principal amounts during their lifetimes.  According to what Bush said they wouldn't "choose" to leave an estate to their heirs, that would be forced on them.  Now of course what Bush said was not in the context of a full disclosure of what the "personal account" scheme would be like so it can be argued that what he said wasn't definitive.  Boy, I'll say it wasn't.  There is nothing approaching a definitive description of the "personal account" scheme (still stuck in "only propaganda") so it is actually impossible to evaluate the scheme.  But what Bush said is revealing.

The scheme, while not described, must be a very rare one: substantially everyone invests in it and substantially everyone wins.  It's not the contrarians who win, it's the invest-like-everybody-else bunch who win.  Curious.  not simply curious, downright amazing. The "personal account" scheme would be, however structured, by far the biggest mutual fund ever (even if it's spread over several new or existing funds.)   Yet mutual fund companies find, over and over, that large funds are harder to manage in a manner that performs well.  So they stop accepting new participants to limit the size.  And mutual fnds that perform well in one set of conditions may perform only so-so or poorly under another.  Yet the "personal account" scheme will always win.  Somehow, the "personal account" scheme will be uninfluenced by the things that influence existing real funds.  Of course that's ridiculous to claim.  By staying always in the "only propaganda" mode the advocates avoid discussing how the scheme will work, what the rules will be, what the effect on the markets of all that retirement money will be, and so on.  Just as important, they don't discuss what the effect on the markets will be of all that money going out, when eventually it goes out, as it must.  Bush finessed that: he declared retirees could not withdraw any principal.  How much analysis is needed to see that if retirees cannot withdraw their principal then that extends the period in which more money is being invested than is being withdrawn?  Buyers outwigh sellers.  Prices go up for purely technical reasons.  That's how markets behave.

Let's see an analysis of the scheme that actually informs those who are supposedly going to do better if they participate.  Bush, at least, never made any such promise.  All he promised was a "chance" they'd do better.  "Chance."  We all know what "game of chance" denotes.  That's what Bush promised.  Who can show that it's better than a bad gamble?  (not claim, show.)

Even the Republicans who controlled Congress when Bush made his big effort did not go along.  They were unconvinced.  They were unconvinced even though Bush said it was his big priority (and it can be assumed party leaders in Congress told Republicans in very firm terms they should back Bush and his big priority.)  Of course those Republicans in Congress weren't shown any real analysis, either.  At least they had the good sense to not switch to something undisclosed over something that has worked for over 70 years - and is fully disclosed.

I am not opposed to younger workers doing better.  I approve of their doing better.  I'm enthusiastic about their doing better.  As it stands what I see is that they're being told they'll have a chance to do better if a nebulous scheme for which no real description exists and for which no analysis has been done is enacted to replace part of Social Security.  If the personal accounts are such a sure thing why not fully descrbe them, why not show an analysis that takes into acount the cash flows well into the future, when large numbers of retirees would be first relying on the scheme and then dying (and presumably passing their principal on to heirs, who either might sell or might also be forbidden to sell)?  I see nothing at all that demonstrates participants in such a scheme will even do as well.  If they have any good sense the potential participants should check that out for themselves (and not let propaganda lure them into sacrificing their retrement future.)  I say that Bush (and others) were trying to sell them a "pig in a poke."  Some still are.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 18:11:50 -0800 2008
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For example, every mutual fund prospectus I have ever seen warns that past results do not guarantee future performance.  Most "personal account" advocates nonetheless rely on past performance to predict the success of "personal accounts."  

That phrase is required by federal law, which is why you see it everywhere.  It evolved from snake-oil salesmen who set up pyramid and Ponzi schemes and then touted absurd returns (20-100%) based off of the last few months of their scam.  It was specifically designed to address specific investments and stocks, not markets as a whole.

They'll glibly recite a claim about past performance in the stock market but when things like the current drop in stock prices are mentioned they'll just as glibly say "Oh, well, not all of the investments have to be in stocks." So the stock market returns are used to promise marvelous future performance yet without even blinking they'll say that not all investment need be in stocks so events such as the recent decline can be ignored.

Investments are, by Federal law, supposed to be designed around the risk tolerance of the investor.  Depending on your net worth, age and disposable income is where you fit.  As a general rule, the younger you are the more risk tolerance you have because you have the time before retirement to ride out the ups and downs.

There are such things as guaranteed principal and guaranteed interest contracts.  They are much less risky and as a result pay less percentage interest.

Asset allocation is based on risk tolerance.  Stocks are frequently considered riskier than CDs, bonds, t-bills and corporate securities.  Among stocks there are different risks.  A typical mix will look like this:

Growth Portfolio Target

As people's situation change their target portfolio will change.  As you approach retirement age the target changes from growth to income, as your tolerance for risk goes down.  Monies are moved out of stocks and into CDs, T-bills and cash, or even into insurance depending on your goal for an estate.

What I will point out, once again, is that for the current Social Security system there is an annual assessment made of its possible future status.  It is on such assessments that most "personal account" advocates rely.  So far, though, the advocates of "personal accounts" have made no assessment of comparable rigor.

We haven't gotten that far.  I'm just arguring for investigating this possibility.  Details would need to be hammered out and there would need to be regulation as to how risky an investment can be.  The government could even set up an insurance fund for those who go broke -- similar to the FDIC.

A full assessment would require a detailed plan, and I agree one would be needed but I'm just arguing to get you to accept the idea of a plan first.

Most advocates, it seems, are unaware that Bush said (At least in Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico) that retirees would be forbidden access to their principal amounts during their lifetimes.

Bush was but one proponent of one possible plan.  This idea was floated with Reagan as well.  I have no problem going on record in disagreeing with Bush's version of this idea.

Lots of personal retirement plans work fine, providing better appreciation of capital with low risk than monies invested in SS.  They migrate from stock and bond based investments when a worker is younger to bond, t-bill and insurance based when they get older.  Heck, many give you the option to invest in T-bills, just like the SS does.

I'm not talking about people getting rich thru this, just improving their return over monies invested in SS, which is what FICA amounts to.  Even a 1-2% increase will mean a big difference when calculated over their career lifetime of 40+ years.

What I'm advocating is professionally managed accounts with investments limited in risk.  Account managers would need to be licensed and bonded.  The gov't could require Errors & Omissions insurance, covering all cases of fraud and negligence.  (Right now it is recommended, not required.)

The vast bulk of monies lost in the market come from three things:

  1. Fraud & Negligence (cover it with gov't backed insurance)
  2. Stupidity (all your investments in Enron stock, etc. -- diversify, diversify, diversify)
  3. Greed (disallow leveraging or margin accounts with these funds)

Again, I'm talking about moving to the next stage of formulating details.  The above three points are where I would start.


Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 18:53:19 -0800 2008
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"We haven't gotten that far.  I'm just arguring for investigating this possibility.  Details would need to be hammered out and there would need to be regulation as to how risky an investment can be.  The government could even set up an insurance fund for those who go broke -- similar to the FDIC."


Perhaps you are advocating investigation of this possibility but Bush and the rest were pushing for acceptance of it before they showed the details. 

A prospectus is required by law, too.  The prospectus doesn't fully protect against making a too-risky investment but at least it is something.  Because they were politicians instead of stockbrokers or fund salesmen Bush and the rest could get away (as far as the law is concerned) with all sorts of behavior that would get a stockbroker or fund salesman in deep trouble.  Specifically, sell an investment without providing a prospectus.

But the real point is that the details are undisclosed.  Absent details, all sorts of claims can be made about how the system would work/what the rules would (or wouldn't) be, and nobody can disprove them because there are no details.

With the right make and model of crystal ball I guess it is possible for someone to investigate the possibility but I don't have such a tool so I cannot do any investigation.           

The concept is known.  Talking about investigating the concept absent details is non-productive.  Unless/until a real proposal is produced investigation can't be done.

I doubt anyone would claim that it is impossible for dishonest people to propose and try to sell an investment that is a bad deal for the buyer.  That should mean that anyone contemplating an investment should demand details - and in some manner make certain the details aren't just more of the lying sales pitch.  That's good investment advice, right?  Know what you're doing before committing a cent.  With "personal accounts as they are today nobody can know.  The options are (1) go ahead and accept the concept without seeing the details, (2) wait for the details before making a decision, (3) reject the concept without seeing the details.  (1) is clearly a bad move.  (2) shows wisdom.  (3) is at least safe, relative to avoiding possible bad investing.

I advocate at least (2.)   Even absent the details I think it's possible to do enough analysis to become fully convinced that extreme skepticism is in order. Heck, extreme skepticism is always in order when considering any new investment.

Personal investment strategies are not at the heart of the "personal account" scheme.  They are a mass investment scheme.  Mass investments have far less flexibility compared to personal investments.  You or I could own what for us is a big chunk of X, where X is a stock or a mutual fund.  We can, pretty generally, choose at any time to sell X and to switch to Y.  That may have a slight effect on the price of X, but usually not that much.  A mass investment organization could own 1000 or 10000 times as much X.  It cannot sell all the X at once with the same ease an individual can.

You may claim that what I say doesn't matter, that the personal account scheme will have many possibilities for investment - and also claim that multiple owners wouldn't choose to sell at the same time.  Really?  Let's say participants can sell at will and that X starts to drop (or that news comes out that indicates X will have lower profits for a while.)  Won't many of the participants sell X? 

I could ask other similar questions.  At the very least it should be recognized that in all probability any actual "personal account' scheme is going to have strict rules precisely to avoid the negative effects things like mass sells would have.  Until the rules are shown the scheme cannot really be evaluated.  Wait for the rules to be revealed, then evaluate.

Oh.  And the professionals that will manage.  Are these professionals like were at Lehman Brothers?  Merrill Lynch?  Were those bad professionals?  If they were bad, why did nobody notice until it was too late?

Also, name a one or a few 401(k) stock plans that didn't lose appreciable recently.  Were the losses the results of your (1), (2), or (3)?  I don't think so.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 19:01:14 -0800 2008
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P.S.  One of the first things I'll look for, in the unlikely event that actual details for a "personal account" scheme are ever published, is whether the managers and overseers of the plan do or do not have a fiduciary duty to the pariticpants.  That is, they will be liable if they take any action that is not in the best interests of the participants.  So, for instance, if a professional steered a big investment to his brother-in-law's company and the brother-in-law absconded with the money the professional would be liable.  (Actual offenses probably would be less blatant than that.)  What I'd want to see is that the managers, etc. were fully bound by a fiduciary requirement.

Of course if anyone wants to argue that he's for a system in which a manager could direct funds to the manager's brother-in-law's fraudulent company (or the like) he can do it.  I'd surely at least ask: "Why?"

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 19:16:13 -0800 2008
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I fully agree on this point.  Fiduciary liability, as well as E&O insurance is an absolute must.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 19:31:44 -0800 2008
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Oh.  And the professionals that will manage.  Are these professionals like were at Lehman Brothers?  Merrill Lynch?  Were those bad professionals?  If they were bad, why did nobody notice until it was too late?

Apples and oranges.  We're talking about two different departments, and the personal brokerage departments of those companies were good and one of the reasons those companies had any sale value left at all -- that is what was sold.

Also, name a one or a few 401(k) stock plans that didn't lose appreciable recently.  Were the losses the results of your (1), (2), or (3)?  I don't think so.

Sigh.  OVER TIME is what I'm talking about.  Over a 40+ year period.  Back in 1963 the DJIA was 652 and it is around 9,000 today, with a peak of just under 15,000 a year ago.  Over a 45-year period a static investment JUST IN THE DJIA would have grown 13x as of today and 23x for someone who would have gotten out a year ago.

Over EVERY sliding 40-year period since at least 1900 the stock market has ONLY GONE UP.  In the last 108 years the market has had 33 down years (counting 2008) and 75 up years.

* * *

So, to sum up, you aren't ruling out the possibility you just won't make a commitment without hard details.  I understand that.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 20:20:01 -0800 2008
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"The devil is in the details."

My prejudice is that "they" will never reveal the details.  That prejudice is reinforced by the last time, under Bush.  They did not reveal the details. 

The issue is retirement security for Americans.  The scheme is one of financial investment.  To propose that an investment program (I'll drop the word "scheme" here) be implemented without telling what the program would entail is behavior quite similar to the guy who phoned me with a great stock tip and hung up in disgust when I asked for the prospectus.  It was a pro forma request: I never would have risked a dime with him anyway.  I might as well buy Rolex watches from a guy in an alley.

One other point to consider: there were not a large number of financial professionals who spoke or wrote in favor of what Bush was proposing.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 20:33:26 -0800 2008
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Bush's proposal was short on details, at least what was made available to the public in general.  It was also too "loose" and you're right in that this concept needs to be proposed fully, in prospectus form, to be properly evaluated.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Sun Nov 09 21:32:19 -0800 2008
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Paul Ryan made at least somewhat of an attempt...

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Mon Nov 10 14:47:59 -0800 2008
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"Sigh.  OVER TIME is what I'm talking about.  Over a 40+ year period."

(GROAN.)

So the required disclamer that past results are not a predictor of future performance is waived for 40+ year periods?  I don't think so.

Besides, what you're saying seems to be just that the money a worker puts in during the first years of his employment will, according to history, show a substantial gain.  If a worker starts at 20 and works to 65 that's 5 years worth of investment that's covered by the 40+ years mantra.  On the rest he's taking a chance, with the chance getting bigger, the more recently the money was invested.  That is implicit in your claim.  That also makes your claim rather worthless.

Your argument also totally ignores that the stock market is a market.  That's a venue in which something is traded, where sellers and buyers conduct transactions.  In a market prices go up when buyers outweigh sellers, go down when sellers outweigh buyers.  For the last 30 or so years the ranks of the buyers have been swollen by all those 401(k) and similar retirement plans.  That means, to some extent, the only reason 401(k) (and other) portfolios have increased in value is that the 401(k) plans are investing.  When they start selling the effect will be the opposite: prices will be driven down. Providing for retirement specifically means saving (in some manner) now to provide funds ot live on in the future.  It is not ever-pyramiding investment, it's invesment with the goal of cashing in that investment after retirement.  Which part of the past history of the stock market is for a period in which that was a major component of what was being done?  If there is no such part then the cited past performance isn't really even pertinent, in addition to being worthless.

It is considerations such as the above that need to be made with respect to "personal accounts."  It is folly, outright deception, or a combination of both to only look at the beginning phase of the plan, during which the purchases by workers participating in the plan will far outweigh sales by participants in the plan (essentially no sales at all for the first 10 years, given that people within 10 years of retirement cannot participate.)  A real analysis will examine what wil happen when sales by retirees (or their heirs) outweigh purchases by current workers.  The chance of such an analysis being done by the proponents is so tiny that it makes sense to just reject the scheme out of hand: they are not going to ever make an honest presentation.

"So, to sum up, you aren't ruling out the possibility you just won't make a commitment without hard details.  I understand that."

I don't think any person should make a commitment to something so vital unless the person can see the details.  Judging from the performance of the crew who have been pushing the scheme that is not ever going to happen.

I'd further my position into advocating that unless/until details are provided the discussion is over (before it really began - that absense of details is a killer.)

Nor is there any appreciable evidence that those who pushed and are pushing "personal accounts" care in the slightest about the retirement security of American workers.  What they want is to soften the voters up for a default on the trust fund so it will not be repaid and taxes on the higher brackets not raised to cover that repayment.  They are the ones who do not want taxes raised to cover the trust fund, once the benefits go above FICA returns and they're also the ones who most suggest that Congress could default on the trust fund.  The only reason to default is to avoid raising taxes, and that's their agenda.  Any "concern" they show for the retirement security of Americans is a false front.

Typical Elder to Young Person Advice
Mon Nov 10 12:05:25 -0800 2008
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Investments are, by Federal law, supposed to be designed around the risk tolerance of the investor.

The proper risk tolerance of anything affecting a human being's ability to acquire food, clothing, shelter, and water should be zero.

Anything else is a bretrayal of trust- fraud & negligence coupled with stupidity and greed.

Problems with Graphic and Firefox 2?

Tue Nov 11 17:21:35 -0800 2008
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Hey Charles,

I think your fancy graphic may have broken Firefox 2. When I try to view this thread in Firefox 2 (really iceweasel in Debian Etch), I get a strange effect where the same line is repeated as I scroll down the page, and I can't see the rest of the thread beyond this point.

I wonder if the problem can be reproduced by anyone else.

Problems with Graphic and Firefox 2?
Tue Nov 11 18:27:07 -0800 2008
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Hmmmm....I'm using FF 3.0.3 on Linux, and have FF 3.0.3 on WinXP available as well, and it shows up fine.

I just used the TinyMCE "insert image" function and linked it to a website I control.  Let me look at the raw HTML...

<wait>

Nope, just a basic:

<img src="http://www.l3git.com/ceh/Investor-Prof-chart-4.jpg" height="330" alt="Growth Portfolio Target" style="border: 1px solid black; vertical-align: top; margin-top: 5px; margin-bottom: 5px;" width="420" />

Problems with Graphic and Firefox 2?
Tue Nov 11 19:34:04 -0800 2008
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I wonder if it has to do with the width of the reply frames. In Opera, the graphic is a bit wider than the text width-- maybe FF2 is having trouble with that.

Problems with Graphic and Firefox 2?
Wed Nov 12 07:05:38 -0800 2008
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Ok, I only have a problem with Firefox 2.0 with Kai's style sheet.  The default one works fine.  Also, I don't really know if the graphic is the problem.  It just seemed to be the main thing that was out of the ordinary.  But the length of the threads might also have something to do with it.

Problems with Graphic and Firefox 2?
Wed Nov 12 07:11:09 -0800 2008
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Interesting.  I'll see if I can install a copy of FF2 next to FF3 and see if I can tell what it complains about.

Do you have the Web Developer add-on installed for FF?  Does is show errors?

Redesigning Social Security
Sun Nov 09 19:50:41 -0800 2008
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Perhaps the simplest thing is to create new, unrelated programs that take care of retirees and dependents, thus render Social Security unimportant, from whence position it can be cleanly and firmly canceled -- just cut off entirely, all at once, since nobody needs it.

Elephant in the room

Mon Nov 10 13:00:42 -0800 2008
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What's wrong with just paying social security out of general revenues? Eliminate FICA taxes entirely and just pay the same benefits out of the general revenue. It'd eliminate a whole lot of handwringing and be more efficient at the same time. Furthermore, this funding scheme would be better for society as a whole since taxation supporting general revenue is far more progressive than payroll taxes are.

Elephant in the room
Tue Nov 11 17:15:59 -0800 2008
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There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! Afterall, our paychecks deductions for income tax are not itemized into spending categorizies.  I guess it just depends on if there is any benefit to splitting out Social Security.

Basically, this whole thread is handwringing about what the Trust Fund really is.  (Well, there is also a separate argument about private accounts, which is essentially an argument for or against mandatory private investments that would directly reduce the portion of FICA going into the traditional Social Security program.)

My whole position comes down to the fact that you can't count money spent as money saved (unless you have confidence that the money spent is over and above that which is necessary to run the government AND it can later be redeemed as an equivalent tax savings), which is why I claim the Trust Fund is simply an accounting gimmick. If the Trust Fund is simply dumped into the general fund and is immediately spent, then it ceases to exist as a net investment, and becomes an obligation for future generations.

In summary, your solution makes the Trust Fund irrelevant.  I'm just trying to argue that, yes, making the Trust Fund irrelevant is fair to tax payers over time. Basically, I could have skipped all the verbosity and just listed the four conditions in Section 2 of the essay that explain how the current Social Security system passes a tax burden on to future generations.  It is no different then deficit spending.

Well, there I go again.  I should have just said, "Yeah, your're exactly right."