Several years ago, President Bush proposed privatization as a
means to reform the US Social Security system. The debate that
followed showed that while most Americans were highly skeptical
of privatization, there was a lack of consensus regarding how to
frame the problem.
Since a problem is unlikely to be solved before it is well
understood, I wrote this essay as an exercise in understanding
the fundamental flaw in the US Social Security system. If we can
agree on the problem, then perhaps the solution becomes obvious
(though not necessarily easy).
Redesigning Social Security
Matt Fulkerson
1 Social Security Design Flaw
The US Social Security system has a built-in design flaw relating
to fluctuating age demographics. The system is designed to pay
retirees the same amount per person, with adjustments for
inflation, from one generation to the next. If the population of
a given generation swells relative to the rest of the population,
it is inevitable that the system will produce a big surplus while
that generation is employed, followed by a big crunch at
retirement.
The fixed-payout-per-person model, considered alone, will not
necessarily lead to an inevitable big crunch. The other key
ingredients are the Social Security Trust Fund coupled with the
requirement that the federal government not run a surplus. These
ingredients lead to inequity among the generations.
2 Generational Inequity
Generational inequity arises from the following characteristics
of the current Social Security system.
Fixed payout per person
Unequal population distribution among generations
Existence of the Social Security Trust Fund
No federal government net operating surplus
The net result is that more populous generations receive more
from the system and less populous generations receive less.
The current Social Security system operates roughly in the
following manner. Workers pay social security tax, and the amount
they receive at retirement is based on how much was paid into the
system. Any surplus funds are invested in the Social Security
Trust Fund. The money invested is quickly spent by the federal
government.
Let us examine the most rosy scenario where the
non-social-security deficit is zero, and a more populous
generation is succeeded by a less populous generation.
(Presumably, it is already understood that any non-zero deficit
increases the tax burden of future generations.) Throughout the
working years of the more populous generation, a social security
surplus will be generated. That surplus reduces the tax burden of
the more populous generation, due to the requirement that the
federal operating budget must not run a net surplus. When the
more populous generation retires, the social security surplus
will turn into a deficit, and the less populous generation must
pay higher taxes as retirees draw down the Social Security Trust
Fund. The less populous generation gets stuck with the bill.
Contrary to popular perception, the Social Security Trust Fund is
not really an investment. Rather, the Social Security surplus is
used to make up a tax shortfall during the working years of a
more populous generation. The Trust Fund effectively becomes a
vehicle for transferring the burden of a tax shortfall on to less
populous future generations.
3 Transparent Solution
There are many possible convoluted solutions to the inequity
problem. However, one solution stands out as being particularly
transparent, and is therefore more likely to be readily
acceptable to Americans of all ages.
Social Security could operate on a
total-fixed-payout-per-generation basis rather than a
fixed-payout-per-person basis, while avoiding any Social Security
surplus altogether. This means that a more populous generation
would pay lower social security taxes and receive proportionately
lower retirement benefits. Such a system would completely
eliminate the Trust Fund and the accompanying generational
inequity. A more populous generation would be well aware that
they were paying lower Social Security taxes and could take
action to increase personal retirement savings. A less populous
generation would be squeezed a little more during its working
years, but could expect to receive a higher level of retirement
benefits in return. The level of retirement benefits should be
low enough so that the burden on the least populous generation is
not too large.
4 Convoluted Solution
It is also possible to keep the current system, but adjust for
generational inequity. For example, taxes on a more populous
generation’s retirement benefits could be raised. However,
absent any understanding of the generational inequity issue, the
higher taxation level would lead to a perception that the more
populous generation of retirees is getting a raw deal. Thus, a
transition to the transparent solution is preferable as it makes
the issue of generational inequity explicit.
5 How To Understand Social Security
We have seen that the Social Security Trust Fund is not a true
investment. Rather, it has the effect of transferring the tax
burden from a more populous generation on to future generations.
Social Security is really a compact between workers and retirees.
Current workers agree to support current retirees and expect that
future generations will continue the tradition.
This is not how Social Security is most commonly viewed, but the
common view of Social Security as a personal investment leads to
general confusion and a lack of understanding of generational
inequity. As such, any attempts to privatize Social Security
should be resisted as an unnecessary blurring of lines between a
social program and private investment. Rather, the appropriate
topic of debate for society is the desired level of Social
Security benefits.
I believe you are skipping a big question. What is Social
Security's purpose?
Is it meant to be a suppliment to other retirement
savings and investments? Or is it meant to be the
primary resource for retired persons?
It was originally designed to be the former, but has ended up
being the latter.
Until we answer that question, the rest is moot.
The way I always looked at it, as taught by my grandparents, was
this.
Your primary savings is your home. Don't move around a
lot and buy a house. Pay it off over the years, keep it
well maintained and it will be your best investment. Other
investments include:
What you can get out of your company in the way of pension,
401(k), 403(b) or other retirement plan. Always contribute
the maximum, especially if they provide matching funds.
Savings in the way of CDs & bank accounts
Investments, such as stocks or bonds.
Well educated, well employed children and grand children to
help out.
Social Security
By the time people are ready to retire, assuming 65+, the house
is usually much larger than they need or are comfortable
with. With no more kids in the house, it is time to
downsize and head to either Florida or Arizona -- or anywhere
else warm. Sell the house and buy a condo or prefab in a
retirement village with all your friends.
The orignial Social Security Act in 1935 was, to quote President
Roosevelt, "frame a law which will give some measure
of protection to the average citizen and to his family against
the loss of a job and against poverty-ridden old age".
The preamble reads (emphasis added):
An act to provide for the general welfare by establishing
a system of Federal old-age benefits, and by
enabling the several States to make more adequate provision for
aged persons, blind persons, dependent and crippled children,
maternal and child welfare, public health, and the administration
of their unemployment compensation laws; to establish a Social
Security Board; to raise revenue; and for other purposes.
Your contention that "Social Security is really a
compact between workers and retirees. Current workers agree to
support current retirees and expect that future generations will
continue the tradition." is a matter of personal
opinion. It was, at no time, ever sold as such.
Workers do NOT have an option to opt-out of the process. It
is a mandatory tax and forced retirement benefit system, and a
very inefficient one at that.
Payouts were specifically tied to the amount
of money paid into the system by the
individual.1
Nor was it designed to be universal, as it originally exempted
several classes of workers.
I would personally like to see an option where individuals are
able to opt-out of the system. Private investment can, and
consistently has, done better at investing savings for
retirement.
You seem to have fallen for the propaganda that the so-called
trust fund is some kind of legitimate investment that will
actually yield a non-zero return.
The trust fund is invested in T-bills. There isn't
anything fundamentally wrong with that; if T-bills are an OK
investment for private investors, they should be OK for the trust
fund as well.
The problem is that they aren't real T-bills. They are
"special" (read "phony") T-bills that are not
actually negotiable financial instruments, and cannot be sold on
the open market. While normal T-bills are backed by the
full faith and credit of the US government, the T-bills in the
trust fund are backed by... nothing whatsoever!
If the US Goverment were to start defaulting on normal T-bills,
there would be an economic disaster the likes of which the world
has never seen. If they default on these phony T-bills in
the trust fund, nothing different will happen than if they did
not default on them. Either way, they'll simply have to
pay social security benefits out of the general fund, or cut
benefits.
Congress has stolen the money that was supposed to be in the
trust fund, and used it for purposes entirely unrelated to social
security, with no plan for paying back the money later.
It's just a giant con intended to make people think that the
social security system is on a solid footing, when in fact it is
supported by nothing but wishful thinking.
All the gloom and doom scenarios we hear about what will happen
when the trust fund dries up are actually wildly optimistic,
because the trust fund has *already* dried up and blown away.
A quick search didn't turn up anything official, but they are
non-marketable T-bills, so they can't be sold to another
parties. They also apparently don't have a maturity
date like normal T-bills.
Wow, I'm impressed that not only do they openly admit that
they are only buying "special" T-bills, but actually
have the temerity to tout that as an advantage!
Social security was "sold" to the public at a time when
the traditional forms of savings had been wiped out by
speculation, economic malfeasance and irrational exuberance. And
the same thing is happening right now, this is version two, gold
release. People's homes that they were paying off or paid off
were lost, because they couldn't pay taxes or the
"liquidity crunch" manufactured at the time made it
impossible for them to keep up payments so the properties got
auctioned off, the "legal" transference of real wealth
upstream (both sides of my family lost their farms for instance).
Stocks people got suckered into buying lost all worth, or most of
it. Savings accounts in banks went poof-arama as thousands of
banks dissolved. Even trying to save specie was made illegal and
government literally confiscated gold and made it illegal to hold
in most monetary forms. To say there was a loss of confidence in
the private sector is an understatement, and in the public sector
there was serious talk of revolt it got so sucky. There was
nothing left, it became near impossible to save for the future,
just dealing with the present was hard enough, and private
charity could only do so much with such high rates of un and
under employment. They were looking at millions of homeless and
starving people shortly, so there was nothing much else to do
then come up with some way to run the printing presses and stave
off mass "social unrest". It went along with the big
public works projects, and then the broken windows economic
effort of WW2.
I'm not saying it was a great idea, but it was one of a small
handful of ideas kept washington DC and wall street from being
sacked and burnt to the ground, so it sure was a great idea for
those folks at least. The bottom line is, there was no safe way
to save for the future then, or now, not the way this system has
been run and designed, because the money and other forms of
portable wealth are based completely on [euphemism for bovine
exhaust used in the garden]. You can *hope* this or that magical
numbered xyz909kf1 account you have will be there for you, or
that the property you are paying off now will be worth more and
will be saleable sometime in the future, or that the local
government won't go so far in hock building sports stadiums
and such like that the taxes just destroy you, or that the cash
you put into other forms of government money like bonds or
treasuries will reflect at least parity purchasing power or even
a little more at maturity, or that strict cash you save in low
interest bankster CDs rates matches or exceeds inflation in the
money supply (forget saving paper cash, strictly a constant net
loss), but that is all it is, hope. Where do the payments from
municipal bonds come from? Taxes on you or your children, ie,
they need to be working a real job that hasn't been labor
wage arbitraged off overseas and be making money else those bonds
can default as well, witness all the states and local governments
going bust now, needing loans, loans from someplace else of more
implied debt on themselvges, bonds to cover previous bonds, which
just rearranges the debt load, it never eliminates it.
I have no easy fix for saving for the future OTHER than investing
in tangibles now. The first form of savings is correct, get the
dang homestead paid off (and it really should be an adequate
homestead with some land around it and big enough to re occupy
with extended family in times of crisis, including food
production) so you only need minimum cash to live on, and be
prepared to not sell it but live in it forever if the market
suckeths then. Look at how many people right now who would *love*
to sell their house and only lose 5 figures on it or walk away
even, and can't do it. If you think you might want
"utilities" in the future but maybe not know where the
cash might be coming from, just in case..just sayin'..
"invest" in some solar panels that last 30 years. And
stuff like that, tangibles, real tangibles, stuff you can wrap
your hands around, real wealth in various forms. I'm not
seeing any form of paper or electronic promises of future wealth
being viable, as there is absolutely zero guarantee they will
either be there, or if there that they will result in purchasing
power that you are expecting or have been lead to believe should
be the case. Might happen...might not, and you have at least
equal odds there near as I can see.
Stocks in particular are such a crazed wildcard that who knows,
what were blue chips a short while ago are now cowchips. Same as
back then, what was it, took to the mid 50s to get the levels
back up to what they were pre-'29? P/Es today (very generally
speaking) are still way over optimistic (to anyone not completely
blitzed on crack), and there's always the greater fool
theory, you have to rely on that primarily to translate those
figures in the stock portfolio to hamburgers and the heating bill
sometime. And there has to be a lot of them fools pretty soon,
given today's demographics, and they will need to be *really*
foolish... And that "full and faith and credit" of the
US is sort of becoming..well, I don't want to say a joke,
because none of this is very funny. Your other point still makes
sense, the next generation, and them actually giving a crap about
their elders, enough to help take care of them, either blood
lines or by marriage or even a long stretch by straight
friendship and charity.
So I agree with you on two points, and erect a big cautionary
"wishful thinking ahead" sign in front of the others.
Right now I don't care, the best, the very most possibly
optimistic *bestus* scenario they will be able to pull off is
just run the printing presses to keep cutting the checks, and
they are going to be doing that *anyway*, because that is all
they can do at this point, so it is a net wash near as I can see.
Between guaranteed government pensions, soc sec, entitlements,
veterans care and so on..busted, flat broke already, so no sense
crying over future spilt milk. Just have to see how it shakes
out, I ain't counting on the electronic IOU promises
though... take it if it shows up, oh well if it don't. I am
guessing it will, given voting pressures and stuff..unless there
is a conveniently timed whoops "plague" that
accidentally wipes out a whole buncha folks. I've mentioned
that before, it is known in doomer circles as the great cull
theory of how governments will deal with excess populations,
especially those past serf labor prime ages. And I don't
think the idea can be immediately dismissed, drastic as it
sounds. The 20th century saw over 100 million people wasted by
their own governments, the precedent is there...
hahahahah! I'm actually a laughing fun guy in teh real world,
I just likes scaring folks on the internets...I still believe
what I wrote above though....
....a meeting at the 2009 council of tri-bilgewaters
conference...a speaker with heavy eyeglasses is making a point at
the podium...[voice mode=henry the k] "vell, vee must
come up viss der zolution to all dese useless eaters...vee haff
no ways to affords them by our models of resource depletion and
adequate compensation for our esteemed stakeholders present, past
the 2020 time frame...zuggestions? " ..a hand goes up,
all eyes turn towards a scientist known in undergrad circles as
Dr. UltimateDoooom.. "I believe we might have an answer
that fulfills the operational mission while insuring plausible
deniabilty..let me introduce you to our newest research creation,
the avianebolaflupox..it started out as a fast spreading high
mortality hemorrhagic tropical disease in...."
I would personally like to see an option where individuals are
able to opt-out of the system. Private investment can, and
consistently has, done better at investing savings for
retirement.
Plenty of people would "opt out" if they could,
thinking that they will get a higher return. Or just wanting to
spend their money now. And many will end up losing it all. Then
they will have to be supported by the government anyway, unless
you want to advocate euthanasia, despite not having contributed.
And with recent events it's hard to keep a straight face at
"private investment can, and consistently has, done better
at investing...."
And with recent events it's hard to keep a straight face
at "private investment can, and consistently has, done
better at investing...."
Feel free to try to point to any time since 1935 where a 40-year
investment period was beaten by the return from Social
Security. The stock market is by no means the only method
of investment, though it has consistently outperformed almost any
other investment over any significant period of time.
Investing is a skilled profession and just because you can click
a button on e-Trade and buy stock doesn't mean you should
directly control all your retirement planning personally.
I would support an opt-out that redirected the withheld monies to
a professionally managed account. You're right about
the "spend it now" mentality. And the people that
lost every dime with Enron, having 100% of their investments in
one company, demonstrate the complete lack of understanding of
the most basic fundamental concepts of investing.
Social Security is not an investment. It is a means to take
money from current workers and distribute it to retirees.
Your idea of opting has severe consequences. If you are a young
worker, who in their right mind wouldn't opt out. As
soon as the option to opt out exists, the seeds of doubt will
spread and younger workers will have no choice but to assume that
the next generation after them will opt out even more. The whole
system will crash and burn within a decade. I'm sure that is
the goal of people who were feeding the ideas to Bush when he
brought up privatization.
No, it is better to recognize what Social Security really is.
It is simply a redistribution of wealth from workers to
retirees so that the elderly can continue to live after the point
in their lives in which they can no longer be competitive with
younger workers.
Then we can have an honest debate about the proper level of
Social Security, Rather than shouting matches between 5 different
ideological camps, all of which fundamentally misunderstand the
issue.
OK, at least you're thinking. Think about what will
happpen to/with/in the financial markets if most or all workers
opt out of Social Security. IF they actually do invest to
secure their retirements then it will be the financial markets
that crash and burn, once significant numbers of the participants
start withdrawing their money. They are markets,
not magic money machines.
Alternately, look at what "personal accounts" would
be. They would be "simply a redistribution of wealth
from workers to retirees so that the elderly can continue to live
after the point in their lives in which they can no longer be
competitive with younger workers." The same
thing. If retirees are supported then it is the workers who
provide that support. That is essentially inescapable.
I also find it offensively wrong to blame the Social Security
system (or its participants) for the profligacy with which the
Congress spends the trust fund. The US borrows the trust
fund money. The US should, as a responsible steward, spend
that money wisely. That's just as true for the money in
the trust fund as it is for the money obtained through selling
Treasury Bonds. If there's a flaw in how the money is
spent (I can easily entertain the idea that "flaw" is
far too mild a word) then that's a flaw in the way Congress
behaves, not a flaw in the Social Security system.
It is at least disingenuous to try to characterize the trust fund
money as being different from all the other borrowing done by the
US government. Typically, that pose is used as a mask for a
desire to eliminate/destroy Social Security, the goal of the
extreme right since Social Security was enacted.
It feels like your reply is partly to me and partly to Charles.
I'll reply to the part which (I think) is directed to
me.
If Congress was very wise, I agree that it would be possible to
spend the Trust Fund surplus on wise things. These things would
essentially act as investments in the sense that any EXTRA public
investments in infrastructure might pay off for future
generations and lead to future savings.
But the reality is that we probably have not kept up with
infrastructure investments over the last few decades. Instead,
the reality is that the Social Security surplus has been
squandered, or at least simply used to make up a shortfall in
taxes. It has not been invested in a way that will pay
off for future generations so that they don't experience a
large budget crunch. This is not an offensive point of view. It
is the truth.
So, in fact, the system is to blame. If it was designed as
a money-in=money-out system, then the money designated for Social
Security would on an annual basis in fact be spent on Social
Security. If public infrastructure investments are needed, they
would be paid for with taxes as appropriated by Congress.
I guess we have to go with the Congress we have. And with
the results of the Congresses we had in the past.
This discussion probably isn't the place for it but I'd
think a diuscussion of how Congress copuld begin making
appropriate infrastructure investments would be (to me) very much
pertinent and very much necesssary.
"This is not an offensive point of view. It is the
truth." Agreed.
The purpose of the trust fund (as it relates to Social Security)
was to pre-obtain from the "baby boomers" the money
needed to support the "Baby boomers" when they
retired. We had a population spike. That's the
truth. The surplus was created to deal with one of
the results of that truth. The fault of Congress lies more
in how it did not similarly provide for the future in terms of
infrastructure and instead misspent money that could (and should)
have gone for infrastructure. Or, in starkest terms,
misspent money, period.
It's surely possible to blame conservatives, blame liberals,
or blame both. Blame is a useless currency. We need
to have a wiser Congress. That requires a wiser electorate
- one that won't let the Congress continue to get away with
the kind of crap they have in the past. It seems we have
some chance of having a wiser Congress (and President) starting
next year. I do not in any way claim that reduces the need
for a wise electorate. I do not assert or believe that the
electorate is showing itself to even be wise enough. When
the electorate is wise enough, it will show.
I agree that we have no one to blame but
Ourselves/Congress/Liberals/Conservatives. But I think we also
need to recognize the reality that
mismanagement/poor-judgement/squandering/etc does occur in the
real world, and work towards a system that does not rely on good
intentions alone to function.
I also think Obama's election is chance to get things right,
or at least better than they have been. That's why I'm
bringing this up now.
A future project would be a discussion of the Constitution
pointing out how Liberals and Conservatives only care about
following certain parts of the Constitution.
Think about what will happpen to/with/in the financial
markets if most or all workers opt out of Social Security.
IF they actually do invest to secure their retirements then it
will be the financial markets that crash and burn, once
significant numbers of the participants start withdrawing their
money. They are markets, not magic money machines.
Except that people don't massivly withdraw funds even when
they retire. Most people want to also provide an estate for
their heirs, which often includes securities and
investments. Hence the death/estate tax, where the
government gets one more crack at what you've accumulated
before it starts taxing your heirs on the exact same stuff.
Transitions from daily worker to retiree isn't like jumping
off a cliff. As retirement approaches investments change to
less growth and more income/stability. Stocks to bonds,
VAs, CDs and cash.
And when money is withdrawn it is frequently spent. Meaning
it is taxed and some of it is invested again in a big circle.
Perhaps people don't massively withdraw*. But masses of
people withdraw when those masses are all retirees depending on
what they have saved for their retirement security.
But heck, show me the actual analysis. :-)
*If people have invested in stocks and want (in large numbers) to
convert those investments to non-stock annuities (for the greater
assured income annuities provide) then they will sell stock
massively when they retire. When sellers outweigh
buyers stock prices go down. It's a
market.
(And what are the heirs going to do? If they
sell then then it's the same, only delayed
until the death of the retiree.)
I would have a serious problem with your "professionally
managed account." I can just hear a "Professional Money
Manager" telling me in late 1997: "No, you can't
shift out of stocks and into bonds now. In the long term, stocks
are the best and only place to keep your money." Then I
would be helplessly watching the stock market crash and cursing
the "Professionals". No thanks. Maybe most people are
not competent at managing their own money. That doesn't
justify what would effectively be confiscation.
You can always override a money manager with a direct
order. It is their job to give you their best opinion and
research, but in the end it is YOUR money.
Depending on your profile (conservative, income, growth, etc.) is
where they put you. Those are adjusted as your situation changes,
and there are significant differences between a 20-40 year old,
and someone nearing retirement, and someone IN retirement.
Almost NO ONE is put 100% into stocks. It just doesn't
happen because it is basically negligence. Any money
manager that said "...stocks are the best and only place to
keep your money" would lose his license and get his pants
sued off. (And they have insurance, called E&O.)
Cherry picking. Most people, once they have gotten out of
startup debt, don't have 40 years left to invest, and there
are plenty of 5, 10, and 20 year periods where the stock market
has been negative.
I'm talking about forced savings via payroll withholding,
exactly like Social Security does it. They don't have a
choice about taking the money out, just where to put it -- SS or
managed market account.
I'm talking
about forced savings via payroll withholding, exactly like Social
Security does it. They don't have a choice about taking
the money out, just where to put it -- SS or managed market
account.
Even then, I'd worry about the folks who *happen* to have
3/4ths of their "managed market account" wiped out by a
sudden need to retire due to cancer in a down year.
The market is far to volitile to depend upon for mission-critical
applications.
Old-age retirement is in effect disability insurance; it's
what you turn to when "old-age", that set of
disabilities that will affect everybody eventually, makes it
impossible for you to work. It is NOT about "enjoying
life"- many people who still work enjoy life.
If it's still possible to work, then that person should;
loads of cases of dementia concretia giving us wonderful roadside
attractions to stop at on vacation attest to the life giving
properties of continuing to work, even if it's only cementing
a bunch of glass bottles together to make a work of art.
Anything else is a LUXURY- and I'm perfectly fine with
leaving luxuries to the free market. But we shouldn't
regulate a huge portion of our population to starvation to do it.
Well, we were dealing with Social Security, which really is two
main programs: old-age retirement and disability
retirement. They're two sepearate programs.
But I agree with you on your assessment of work, luxury and
necessity.
I tackled only the question that I wanted to address, that part
of the current system which is unfair if the population
fluctuates. I have no problem with a separate debate over the
level of Social Security benefits (should it be a supplement or
the primary source of retirement income).
Social Security is "going bankrupt" precisely due to
the reason I've outlined. The boomers are going to want to
take out exactly what they put in plus interest. Well, the
reality is that the surplus is already spent every single year,
so there is no real investment. The Trust Fund is just an
accounting gimmick. You can't double count the money so that
you can both spend it and save it at the same time.
So, if you remove the artificial "investment" from the
system, you find that what is left is system where money goes
straight from current workers to current retirees. That part is
solvent by definition. Leave the current system in place,
and you have a transfer of tax burdens that is causing the system
to "go bankrupt".
Oh, come on. If someone buys a corporate bond does not the
corporation likewise spend the money? In fact, the reason
for the corporate bond is precisely to obtain money to
spend. That money is just as "spent" as is the
money in the trust fund.
In the case of the corporate bond the eventual redemption of that
bond depends on the ability of the corporation to sell goods or
services and make a profit. In the case of Treasury Bonds
the eventual redemption is based on the ability of the federal
goverment to tax.
All you can really say is that a government is not like a
corporation. Duh.
Future taxpayers are stuck with all the bills for
all the things that have been funded beyond available
revenue. They are "stuck" with repaying the loans
made to the trust fund because the trust fund was created in
order to keep Social Security self-supporting in anticipation of
the retirment of the "baby boomers." The FICA
taxes that created the trust fund have already been paid.
The taxes to repay the trust fund aren't paying for
retirement, they're paying for whatever the trust fund money
was spent on.
When the trust fund was created it was created with the full
expectation that it would be repaid when that became
necessary. There was no deception nor sleight-of-hand
involved. The Treasury borrowed, the Treasury must
repay. that's what the special bonds signify.
That future taxpayers have to repay the loans has no special
significance for the trust fund beyond the requirement that
future taxpayers have to repay all the bonds that have been
issued.
This does affect the federal cash flow, but it is improper to
blame Social Security or the retirees. The blame goes to
Congress, for so grossly overspending.
Stated another way, it would be wholly wrong to "cure"
the situation by defaulting on the trust fund. It rather
seems that those who most vocally declare that "there is no
trust fund" are either the ones who would perpetrate such a
default or are stand-ins for them. For some very twisted
reason they seem to believe that it is acceptable to default on
those obligations. Speculation on why they
have that belief would simply insult them. I don't mind
insulting them for that belief, but such insults contribute
nothing to understanding. Let them state their reasons - if
they care to and can.
I wish I could convince you that I have no intention of wrecking
Social Security, but this is the internet after all. We do not
know each other personally.
It IS proper to blame the Social Security system. It is not
proper to blame the retirees, but it is essential for them to
understand that they have benefitted from a reduced tax burden
due to balancing the budget with the Social Security surplus.
Basically, I'd like nothing more than you and Charles to
understand what I am trying to say, because then we'd have a
basis for debate on the issue.
It appears your real argument is with the creation of the trust
fund. Instead, you'd either now have higher taxes or
you'd reduce benefits as the "baby boomers" retire
to keep the system in balance.
But we have the trust fund. So my thinking and my
approach recognizes that. My approach would also have the
effect of keeping the trust fund, in the future, at a minimum
level. In infinite time my approach pretty much would
parallel your approach: income matches expenditures.
My approach doesn't "throw up its hands" because
the demographics fluctuate. It would seem that such
fluctuations will be inevitible. I do not favor penalizing
retirees just because a lot of other retirees were born around
the same time they were born. I do recognize reality: if
Social Security is to be self-supporting then, over time, the
taxes to support it and the benefits it pays have to match.
I think it was entirely proper for the Congress to provide for
the retirement of the "baby boomers" as it did
provide. That the Congress was less wise overall then and
snce then is a problem. I do not see it as productive to
blame that lack of wisdom on Social Security.
If Congress had at that time and since actually created a
balanced budget then the trust fund would be an
"investment," since the excess FICA taxes would have
been surplus. The reality being what it is any discussion
of that is on the level of discussing how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin.
So we need a transition period to phase out the Trust Fund. The
role of AARP will be to increase the transition period because
that is in the interest of its current members.
In the end, however, we need to be on a course that makes the
Trust Fund irrelevant going forward. Because you are right, the
fluctuations in demographics ARE inevitable, so we should change
the system so that this inevitable fluctuation does not favor one
demographic over another. We've tried and failed the first
time through to use the Trust Fund as a real investment. No need
to keep repeating our mistakes.
Also, I agree with you that future tax payers are responsible for
all forms of overspending and subsequent government borrowing.
This is an even larger problem ($7 trillion vs. $3 trillion), but
it too has a solution. Money-in=money-out, or pay as you go.
I just read the Wikipedia article on the Trust Fund, and in fact
it says that it is an accounting scheme and not an investment.
Wikipedia isn't the final arbiter of anything. I've
made some contributions to some Wikipedia articles myself and I
think I have (probably in a discussion) myself said the turst
fund is an accounting device.
Social Security was desgned to be self-supporting, which I think
means that all it spends has to come from FICA taxes.
Because there was a population spike the trust fund was created
(or the taxes raised such that the trust fund attained a large
size) so that t could be accumulated while the "baby
boomers" were still working so that it would be there to pay
the "Baby boomers" their retirement benefits. So
the trust fund is an accounting device to keep that true: FICA
pays for SS.
Whether or not the trust fund is an "investment" seems
to not be pertinent to real issues. The trust fund is an
obligation of the federal government. That obligation
should be met. If saying the turst fund is not an
investment is cover for advocating default on that obligation
then I am opposed. If the obligation is honored then what
the trust fund is called is pretty much immaterial.
If the idea is "Congress could at any time choose to default
on the trust fund" then I think every reader of such a claim
should mentally add to that "and I'm a spokesman for
those who would favor such a Congressional default" as an
implied part of the message. In this case saying
Congress might default is fairly equivalent to
advocating that default.
Ok, I'll revise my statement that the Trust Fund is not an
investment. The Trust Fund is an obligation placed on future
generations of tax payers to fund the Social Security System
above and beyond the FICA tax. And therein lies the inequity
problem in the face of fluctutating demographics.
I don't think we need to advocate defaulting on the Trust
Fund, I'd just prefer that we cut benefits or raise FICA
taxes so that we never have to draw it down. That would satisfy
me and would force a compromise on the issue for a while. But I
would hope that in the end everyone would see things my way :-)
so that we have a permanent fix in place that is less subject to
political manipulation/obfuscation.
I have some things to get done, so I might not reply for a while.
The trust fund is an obligation on future generations only in the
sense that the trust fund owns the bonds. In that respect
there is no significant difference between the trust fund and any
other holder of Treasury bonds.
If the trust fund is never drawn down then that is, from the
point of view of the Social Security participants,
identical to default. Unless you can explain how
it is not. (I can remember someone telling me "I'd
rather owe it to you than cheat you out of it."
That's just a disguise put on "cheating you out of
it.")
The trust fund represents, in large measure, the monies paid in
by the "baby boomer" generation during their working
years. As they retire they are going to want/need the
benefits from it. When they are drawing these benefits the
taxes paid by those still working will go to retiring the bonds
(if we're lucky and the solution isn't to simply to pay
them off by issuing ordinary treasury bonds.) There is
nothing I see about the "baby boomers" or about Social
Security as a system that requires them to just forget the
money. There is a huge debt load being passed on to future
generations. There is no justification visible for
selecting out the special bonds in the trust fund for
non-payment.
These bonds in all forms, if left to accumulate over the long
term, are all a way to pass on tax obligations to future
generations. It's all fundamentally the same problem.
I don't feel like expanding the discussion now, but
philosophically I would not be opposed to expanding the
money-in=money-out argument to apply to all government spending
and taxation, with possibly some short term exceptions to an
annually balanced budget.
I've already said why Social Security is special in section 2
of the essay.
Private
investment can, and consistently has, done better at investing
savings for retirement.
I was with you clear up until that last statement. IF you
are lucky, private investment can do a better job. Lucky is
that you retire and get your money into safe investments during a
boom time. It's as easy to show that private investment
loses money as makes it, just cherry pick the years you are
comparing. 1986-2008, you'd have been better off
stuffing your money into a matteress, 1965-1999, no other
investment would have done.
So while you're right in a way, you're also basically
gambling with large numbers of old people starving. Do you
really want the people to serve the economy rather than the
economy serving the people?
In January of 1986 the DJIA was at 1,500 and today it is at 9,000
which is 6x growth, minus inflation. Sticking your money
under a matteress would have given you a net loss of about 54% of
your money's value, according to the inflation calculator.
If you start 'em when they first get working around age 20,
and carry it thru when they retire at 67+, that gives you a 47
year span. There is no 47-year period where the market
didn't outperform straight t-bills.
Again, keep in mind I'm not talking about getting rich, just
increasing your return over t-bills (SS) by 2% or 3%. Over
a career lifetime it could mean the difference between being able
to retire or working until you die.
I know far too many baby boomers whose 401k accounts are at 0 for
the DJIA to be the whole story. Heck, I know a couple of GI
generation people who are getting foreclosed upon- because their
investments-based retirement strategy over the last 60 years
ended up negative.
The problem is the volatility of the investment, not the straight
return. For mission critical applications, one does not
design a system based on a random number generator.
Probably a dozen or more times, I've overheard or been
involved in a typical conversation between an older adult and a
young adult. Inevitably, the older adult is planning to draw
Social Security benefits, but recognizes that the current system
is unsustainable. So the advice to the younger adult is to start
saving as fast as possible, because while Social Security will be
available to the older adult at somewhere near the 100% level, it
will be at 0% by the time the young adult retires.
Now the advice to save as much as possible is sound advice,
regardless. But that is not the point. The point is
that if the current system is corrected so that money in equals
money out, it is fundamentally solvent. It is completely within
our power, right now, to salvage Social Security (say at 75% of
the current level) for any number of generations to come if we
eliminate the false accounting of the Trust Fund and switch to a
money-in = money-out system.
Yes. To permanently preserve Social Security it will be
necessary, from time to time, to increase revenue, decrease
benefits, or both. That's Social Security as currently
constituted: no general revenue used for retiree support.
It's self-supporting: FICA taxes pay for it.
How about this approach? Keep Social Security exactly as it
is now, with just one change. Each year make a 50-year
forward projection. If the projection goes negative then
reduce the next year's benefit level (computed exactly as
now) by up to 1% (less, if the lesser reduction eliminates the
projected deficit.) The reduced benefit level (if there was
a reduction) will become the basis for the next year's
calculation: it's a permanent reduction. Even if the 1%
reduction does not remove the projected deficit limit the
reduction to just 1%. Reductions in future years (if needed
- the economy could shift so that the current projection can be
seen to have been unnecessarily pessimistic) can, cumulatively,
eventually eliminate the deficit.
This is a "reduction in benefits," which some decry, in
a knee-jerk fashion. I think we agree on a basic concept:
if Social Security is to be self-supporting (no general revenue
used for retiree support) then it cannot spend more than it takes
in.
You suggest 75% of the current level (which I assume is in some
sort of "constant dollar" terms.) If the
50-year projection I suggests continues to show a deficit then in
28 years the level will be down to 75% of current levels (again,
assuming "constant dollar" levels.) In 50 years
the reduction would be to abut 60% of current levels.)
If the benefit level is inadequate then future voters, working
through a future Congress, can institute a correction for that,
possibly by again increasing the FICA tax level. It is of
course up to future voters and Congresses to determine just what
"inadequate" means.
I pulled the 75% number out of a hat. It was roughly meant to
reflect how much strain the tempory increase in retirees will put
on the system.
It sounds like we agree on the balance of money in and out issue.
I like your idea in the sense that it balances the Social
Security budget with Social Security funds only. My only concern
is that the means of achieving the balance is simple enough to be
understood so as to minimize the knee-jerk reactions. In my
opinion, it would be best to have a system that is designed to
achieve a balance without the need for too many adjustments. The
system should be inherently as fair as possible so we don't
waste time debating the system every time the membership of AARP
fluctuates significantly, for instance.
That said, I'm not too picky about the details of the system
as long as the majority of people understand it and it
doesn't lead to a transfer of obligations over time.
"Fair" I can't provide*. Adding an annual
adjustment to me makes the system work using a simple idea and
one that is automatic, so there is no need for annual debates
over how to keep Social Security solvent. The AARP (I'm
a member) may or may not like the idea of such an
adjustment. If they don't they are really arguing more
for the benefit of future retirees than for current ones.
It's not wrong of them to be concerned with future retirees
but it ought to be quite plain that there's a large overlap
between "future retirees" and "current
workers." The bottom line is that to keep the program
"solvent" within its design definition it can be
necessary to adjust either the revenue, the benefits, or
both. I don't think there is any justification for
claiming that the AARP should not paricipate in any dialog.
I do not suggest that the AARP should dictate what is done.
I'd like to suggest that they (and all others) stick to
reality.
I think that current workers would be well served by having it
pointed out to them that the claims for personal accounts are
merely that: claims. Social Security is subjected
to an annual analysis right now. The "personal
account" scheme pushed by Bush has not been subjected to a
similar analysis. Instead, we most typically see a claim
made that every prospectus (stock or mutual fund) specifically
disclaims: past results are used to predict the futue.
Arguing for relying on such a claim perpetuates the lack of
analysis of personal accounts. It's at least
irresponsible to advocate replacing some or all of
Social Security with a scheme that has not been analyzed
similarly to how Social Security is analyzed each year.
*"Fair" depends on the definition of
"fair." Typically a definition is chosen for how
it favors whomever the writer wishes to favor.
We are in 100% agreement that personal accounts are a terrible
idea. They just blur the lines between Social Security and
private investment. Charles and brouhaha were in favor of
personal accounts above, not me. We already have 401Ks and IRAs
for the private portion.
I'm not in principle opposed to AARP. My only concern is that
what's fair for current AARP members is not necessarily fair
for future generations. I don't want fair to be determined by
the demographic which has the larger lobbying power.
People need to be taken care of financially in their retirement
years. You seem to be saying it is primarily the job of the
rest of society, using the Federal Government as a proxy.
Taxes are extracted from the current workers to pay for current
retirees. Trust the government, they'll take care of
you.
I'm saying I would prefer to give people more of an option to
provide for their own retirement, instead of relying on the
government to do it for them. A bit more self-reliance.
By saying "blur the lines between Social Security and
private investment", you miss the point. Both have the
same purpose -- to provide for the individual during
retirement. They are just different vehicles and are not
necessarily mutually exclusive.
Which again, goes back to the main question of exactly what
benefit level is SS intended to provide?
I do agree that SS should be self sufficient and the fraudulant
accounting, false promises and raiding of the trust fund are
unconscionable and need to be stopped. That they are
possible at all is a major flaw in the design of the system.
All I'm saying is that if society comes to a consensus on the
level of Social Security, it should be set up in a way that does
not transfer a tax burden to future tax payers. That's it.
My objection to private accounts is not an objection to private
saving or even an endorsement of the current level of Social
Security. If society can agree that private accounts should be
allowed at the level of 2% of contributions initially, then
I'd prefer to take the 2% and use it as I see fit.
Private accounts have nothing to do with Social Security anyway.
Lets change the language and call it mandatory 401K contributions
instead.
All I'm saying is that if society comes to a consensus on
the level of Social Security, it should be set up in a way that
does not transfer a tax burden to future tax payers. That's
it.
I agree.
Private accounts have nothing to do with Social Security
anyway.
Both are means to an end, not an end unto themselves. The
end is a financially stable retirement. They are two paths
to the same goal and need to be looked at together, since they
can compliment each other.
Lets change the language and call it mandatory 401K
contributions instead.
No, call it instead mandatory retirement savings instead. A
401(k) is a specific retirement savings vehicle, like a 403(b),
and the various forms of IRAs.
But, to address your primary question -- how do we set up Social
Security so that it doesn't transfer a tax burden to future
workers...
That would imply one thing. That money in == money out.
To figure that out, you need to know several demographics.
The retirement age where people start to draw.
Currently this is 65 - 67,
depending on the year you were born.
The average lifespan, or how long people will be
drawing. Currently this is about 78, plus or minus the year
you were born in and your gender.
Since Social Security is really a form of
insurance, Congress should probably use proper actuarial
tables and life insurance demographics. Things like
smoking, drinking, distance driven to work, type of work, family
history of disease, etc.
So, let's make it easy and say the average draw is 78 - 66 or
12 years.
My grandfather (W9BEK, b. 1921), who just recently passed away,
worked his entire life at the same company -- Continental
Bank. He did take a few years off for a stint in the Army
during WW2, but resumed his career at the same bank
afterward. (There you go Prez -- lifetime employment!)
He started in the mail room and worked his way up to Vice
President of Accounting before retiring early in 1978 after the
accidental death of his youngest son.
His SS check was, when he died, $854 per month or just over
$10,000 per year. That doesn't take into account cost
of living adjustments made during the time he started collecting
SS (1986) or anything like that.
Now, assume the standard 12 years of draw, at $10,000 per year
and you have a total draw of $120,000 for one person.
Assuming they work 45 years (age 20 to age 65), they would have
to pay in $2,667 per year, every year to bank that $120,000.
This, of course, leaves out inflation and any interest earned on
the money banked. For simplicity I'll assume they
cancel each other out.
Which brings us back to my initial question -- how much is SS
supposed to pay out? Is it a supplement to other savings
and investments, or is it the primary source of income.
With my grandfather, being an accountant and raised in the Great
Depression, he was a tightwad. :-)
With the help of my great-grandparents, he built the house in the
'burbs in 1950 and took a 15 year mortgage. It was paid
off on time in 1965. He joked to me that his monthly train
pass (he took the train to work all those years) cost more than
his mortgage payment -- $85 / month vs $123 / month.
They later expanded the house, adding a garage, a bedroom, a
living room and a porch as well as super-insulating. The
house cost $8,500 and was appraised recently at over $500,000,
though mostly because of the lot size and location.
SS was a supplement to his company pension, my
grandmother's SS ($350 / month), and his investments.
Medicare (a different article totally) covers their health care,
with his retirement benefits handling prescriptions and 100% of
what Medicare doesn't. They had (and still have) zero
debt. The only thing they ever financed was the house.
Now, I can guarantee you that he didn't pay in $120,000
during his career. His top salary in 1977 was about $37,000
which was a bit over double the national median of $16,000.
The rates of FICA
withholding over the years he was working ranged from 1.0% to
4.9%, matched by his employer so it ranged from 2% to 10%.
The problem is, his salary change wasn't linear. In his
latter years the raises were proportionally larger, so he
wasn't making $37,000 for long. Now, I could do lots of
math but my best guess is he paid in about $28,000 over the years
in FICA.
He drew for 19 years, about $150,000 trying to account for COLA,
etc.
That means a deficit of $122,000 that he drew but didn't pay
in.
Now, if you take that $28,000 he paid in and divide it by the 19
years he withdrew you get $1,475 per YEAR.
Which brings us right back to the point of HOW MUCH do they need
to draw? $1,475 won't get you a refrigerator to use the
cardboard box to live in.
My grandfather was the ideal case: no debts, house paid long ago,
pension & health insurance from job, savings &
investments supplemented by SS. And he pretty much needed
$10,000 per year to not sell his house and drain his investments
dry.
So, to sum up, saying money in == money out would be easy.
Doing it is going to be very tough and is directly dependent on
what the benefit level is and what the purpose of SS is.
It is not your grandfather's money-in which equals your
grandfather's money-out, though. The money your
grandfather paid in each year went directly to Social Security
payments that very same year. By the time your grandfather
was receiving SS payments, we'd had so much inflation that
the current workers' FICA payments were enough.
In fact, I think we still might have a surplus in FICA taxes
today, though that is supposed to dry up pretty quickly over the
next few years. We have to cover the future deficit somehow,
either by cutting payments in the future, raising taxes (FICA or
otherwise),
When I retire in 30-some years, if SS still is in operation, the
workers at that time will be paying me to retire. Even if
we draw down the Trust Fund (paying for the entire draw down by
raising taxes), and do not adjust SS benefits at any time in the
future, at the point when the Trust Fund is exhausted there will
still be money coming in, and so there can still be money being
paid out. I don't know where people are getting the myth that
SS is going to go from current payments to $0 per month by the
time you or I retire. That just is not the case.
Now, if we switched to money-in=money-out immediately, there
would be little affect until the number of retirees starts to
grow substantially (which it is projected to do). At that point,
we'd have a couple of options. The obvious ones are cutting
benefits in proportion to the growing number of retirees, or
raising FICA taxes to cover the difference. If we elect to raise
FICA taxes, then after the number of retirees begin to recede (if
it ever does), we'd be back to a surplus, and
money-in=money-out would tell us to either lower FICA taxes or
raise SS payments.
So keeping current benefits indexed to inflation is possible, but
it places a larger FICA tax burden on current workers. If SS
payments are increased once the number of retirees recedes, then
the net result has been an expansion in SS benefits. If SS
payments are held constant per person when the number of retirees
recedes, then the workers who had their FICA taxes raised will
not receive any benefit for the amount their taxes were raised.
So money-in=money-out requires some decisions to be made
regarding benefit levels or something equivalent like age
eligibility. But the changes are on the order of 10%, not 90%.
I understand the concept of "current payer", where the
monies paid out now are paid in now. I also understand the
issue of the population bulge, where we will soon have more
people drawing than paying in because of the post-WW2 baby boom.
The answer was the Trust Funds, where excess monies collected
when the Boomers were working were saved for this rainy
day. The problem was the mandate that the monies be
invested in "special" U.S. T-bills, creating what will
soon be an insurmountable debt which is payable real soon now.
I'm not convinced the answer isn't simply requiring a
certain, large percentage of the excess monies be kept in cash
and off limits for anything else except paying SS benefits.
However, I do believe we are past the point of more in than out,
so while that may have worked 20-30 years ago, we are in a pickle
now. The answer is going to be either increase the income
(more or different taxes) or decrease the outgo (decrease
benefits).
Age eligibility is an option. What was the average lifespan
and average working span of people in 1940 (65?) and what is it
now (77?)? Another question is should it cover
everyone? When implemented SS benefits excluded several
categories of workers. Should it be universal?
Keeping excess monies as cash: I guess that was Gore's lock
box plan. But like you said, it's too late now.
I guess if the entire $2 trillion in the trust fund is drawn down
within the next decade or two, the silver lining is that the
additional annual deficit that will cause is a lot smaller than
the current rate of increase of the national debt. Here's one
way to look at it. The Trust Fund represents potential for
conversion to ordinary nation debt-- there is just a lot of
uncertainty regarding how long the conversion will take.
The $1000 per month figure you mentioned in your previous post
strikes me as not enough for most retirees to make ends meet. For
that reason, it is probably unlikely that we'll see a cut in
payment amounts. So it is probably inevitable that the Trust Fund
will be drawn down to zero, at which point we'll achieve
money-in=money-out until the surplus replenshes the Trust Fund
and we repeat the whole cycle. Sigh.
As Brad has pointed out, the $2 trillion Trust Fund is dwarfed by
the rest of the national debt ($8 trillion). In the end,
we'll have to figure out a way to deal with the $8 trillion
(soon to be $10 trillion) debt.
"I don't want fair to be determined by the demographic
which has the larger lobbying power."
Nor do I, but as far as I know the AARP position is aimed just as
much at assuring future benefits as it is to assuring current
benefits.
That doesn't make them right or wrong, but if it's true
then you have mischaracterized them.
I oppose "personal accounts." As presented by
Bush they'd not apply to me nor directly affect me in any
manner. I'm opposed to them because they are a
deliberate cheating of the younger workers who are supposedly
going to be the beneficiaries of them. My position
isn't one of selfish interest, it's one of caring for
future retirees. I think that the AARP and its other
members may be similarly motivated. In a forum such as this,
where they don't participate, it's easy to misrepresent
them and have that go unchallenged.
Of course I've seen how politicians operate. The Bush
guarantee to me as a retiree that implementing personal accounts
would not affect me in any way was good only until (if it
happened) personal accounts were implemented. Once that
occurrred Bush (or his successor) would have no hesitation at all
in reducing my benefits, arguing that they were too high and
couldn't be afforded. Note that my major objection is
to the cynical deceit involved in telling me (and others) that
implementing personal accounts wouldn't affect my benefits,
so I could go along and be safe. Maybe,
realistically, benefits will have to be reduced. ((I
proposed doing precisely that.) If that's so, OK.
I am highlighting and objecting to the deceit.
Perhaps a "personal accounts" advocate could tell me
just how committed (personally) to current retiree benefits not
being reduced that "pesonal account" advocate is.
100%? Strongly? Weakly? Not at all? I suspect
the latter. Again, that's OK, but don't expect me
to be happy about being lied to. And, if you somehow
recognize that I'm being lied to maybe the next step is to
check to see if those who would be the participants in the
"personal account" scheme are being lied to.
It's there if you look for it.
Considering what backs the SS payments now (not much), I'm
100% for the government guaranteeing current SS benefits at their
current level and current COLA formula for anyone age 60 and
over.
Pay for them however they have to. We made a promise to the
older generation and it darn well should be kept. But we
need to recognize that the system is doomed to failure and we
need to be honest with the younger generation.
As a younger (40), personal account advocate, I'd fight
tooth-and-nail to keep current retiree benefits where they're
at until they all die. Assuming, that is, we can work out
some form of personal account.
Hey, if we can find $1 trillion for war and $700 billion for the
banks, and a possible $50 billion for the auto industry, we can
find money to keep our promise on Social Security.
(Ummm...how much was that last stimulus check? Add that in
there, too.)
The problem with private accounts, as far as I can tell, is that
every penny you invest in your private account diminishes the
amount of available funds for paying the current retirees.
That is, while it would be a boost for those paying into
private accounts, it would accelerate the insolvency of the main
part of Social Security (the non surplus part that effectively is
sent straight to current retirees).
Hey, I'm one of the people who would be affected.
Forget me.
Ignore side effects on current retirees for a while. What
really needs to be investigated is how the scheme would work
for those who participate. The advocates glibly
claim it would succeed. They don't demonstrate
that. They don't even give details. I see it as a
government-mandated, government-managed (in some manner) bubble
scheme. Bubbles burst. This bubble would burst. When
it burst it would take down not just the participants in the
"personal accounts," it would take down all
investors. That would be far worse than the current
crisis. What prevents it being a bubble, what prevents is
bursting? That's not just detail, it is vital
detail. "They" gloss over that entirely.
(Note that anything they describe that is designed to prevet
bubble behavior will be in direct contradiction to their
"people can manage their own money" claim.
Further note that anything designed to prevent a "run"
on the accounts will also serve to lock participants in when the
accounts are cratering. Do "they" ever discuss
that?)
If (as I claim) the scheme won't work for the younger
workers, if it fails on its own, then there's no need to
consider it further. "They" claim that a general
scheme, with substantially all workers investing in it, will
provide steady positive returns. That would mean,
apparently, that in addition to the returns currently extracted
by all the current investors there would be a huge
amount of additional returns that would go to the retirees.
Really? Everybody wins? In markets? Every time
we've had an "everybody wins" market scenario the
next thing has always been everybody loses. What
magic is there in this scheme that avoids that?
OK, not quite everybody loses. When the bubble bursts its
never the small investors who avoid loss - and it is the
small investors, the workers and retirees, that we're
concerned with here.
The way SS is structured the benefits all come either directly
from FICA taxes or from the interest earned on the trust fund
amounts. The trust fund is already FICA-derived, so using
that to pay benefits fits within the above.
While many appear comfortable with simply declaring that the
system is "doomed to failure" or the like making such a
claim isn't the same as demonstrating it.
I enthusiastically endorse being honest with the younger
generation. The "personal account" advocates have
yet to start. They provide propaganda, not
information.
For example, every mutual fund prospectus I have ever seen warns
that past results do not guarantee future performance. Most
"personal account" advocates nonetheless rely on past
performance to predict the success of "personal
accounts." And they tap dance.
They'll glibly recite a claim about past performance in the
stock market but when things like the current drop in stock
prices are mentioned they'll just as glibly say "Oh,
well, not all of the investments have to be in stocks." So
the stock market returns are used to promise marvelous future
performance yet without even blinking they'll say that not
all investment need be in stocks so events such as the recent
decline can be ignored. (If any advocate finds what I say is
wrong I hope that advocate will provide his alternate view.)
I don't care to argue such things. What I will point
out, once again, is that for the current Social Security system
there is an annual assessment made of its possible future
status. It is on such assessments that most "personal
account" advocates rely. So far, though, the advocates
of "personal accounts" have made no assessment of
comparable rigor. (They are stuck in the "only
propaganda" mode.) It is nearly useless to try to
discuss "personal accounts" with them honestly
because they as yet have not made an honest proposal.
Most advocates, it seems, are unaware that Bush said (At least in
Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico) that retirees would be
forbidden access to their principal amounts during their
lifetimes. According to what Bush said they wouldn't
"choose" to leave an estate to their heirs, that would
be forced on them. Now of course what Bush said was not in
the context of a full disclosure of what the "personal
account" scheme would be like so it can be argued that what
he said wasn't definitive. Boy, I'll say it
wasn't. There is nothing approaching a definitive
description of the "personal account" scheme (still
stuck in "only propaganda") so it is actually
impossible to evaluate the scheme. But what Bush said is
revealing.
The scheme, while not described, must be a very rare one:
substantially everyone invests in it and substantially everyone
wins. It's not the contrarians who win, it's the
invest-like-everybody-else bunch who win. Curious.
not simply curious, downright amazing. The
"personal account" scheme would be, however structured,
by far the biggest mutual fund ever (even if it's spread over
several new or existing funds.) Yet mutual fund
companies find, over and over, that large funds are harder to
manage in a manner that performs well. So they stop
accepting new participants to limit the size. And mutual
fnds that perform well in one set of conditions may perform only
so-so or poorly under another. Yet the "personal
account" scheme will always win. Somehow, the
"personal account" scheme will be uninfluenced by the
things that influence existing real funds. Of course
that's ridiculous to claim. By staying always in the
"only propaganda" mode the advocates avoid discussing
how the scheme will work, what the rules will be, what the effect
on the markets of all that retirement money will be, and so
on. Just as important, they don't discuss what the
effect on the markets will be of all that money going out, when
eventually it goes out, as it must. Bush finessed that: he
declared retirees could not withdraw any
principal. How much analysis is needed to see that if
retirees cannot withdraw their principal then that extends the
period in which more money is being invested than is being
withdrawn? Buyers outwigh sellers. Prices go up for
purely technical reasons. That's how markets behave.
Let's see an analysis of the scheme that actually
informs those who are supposedly going to do better if
they participate. Bush, at least, never made any such
promise. All he promised was a "chance"
they'd do better. "Chance." We all know
what "game of chance" denotes. That's what
Bush promised. Who can show that it's better
than a bad gamble? (not claim, show.)
Even the Republicans who controlled Congress when Bush made his
big effort did not go along. They were unconvinced.
They were unconvinced even though Bush said it was his big
priority (and it can be assumed party leaders in Congress told
Republicans in very firm terms they should back Bush and his big
priority.) Of course those Republicans in Congress
weren't shown any real analysis, either. At least they
had the good sense to not switch to something undisclosed over
something that has worked for over 70 years - and is fully
disclosed.
I am not opposed to younger workers doing better. I approve
of their doing better. I'm enthusiastic about their
doing better. As it stands what I see is that they're
being told they'll have a chance to do better if a nebulous
scheme for which no real description exists and for which no
analysis has been done is enacted to replace part of Social
Security. If the personal accounts are such a sure thing
why not fully descrbe them, why not show an analysis that takes
into acount the cash flows well into the future, when large
numbers of retirees would be first relying on the scheme and then
dying (and presumably passing their principal on to heirs, who
either might sell or might also be forbidden to sell)? I
see nothing at all that demonstrates participants in such a
scheme will even do as well. If they have any good sense
the potential participants should check that out for themselves
(and not let propaganda lure them into sacrificing their
retrement future.) I say that Bush (and others) were trying
to sell them a "pig in a poke." Some still are.
For example, every mutual fund prospectus I have ever seen
warns that past results do not guarantee future
performance. Most "personal account" advocates
nonetheless rely on past performance to predict the success of
"personal accounts."
That phrase is required by federal law, which is why you see it
everywhere. It evolved from snake-oil salesmen who set up
pyramid and Ponzi schemes and then touted absurd returns
(20-100%) based off of the last few months of their scam.
It was specifically designed to address specific investments and
stocks, not markets as a whole.
They'll glibly recite a claim about past performance in
the stock market but when things like the current drop in stock
prices are mentioned they'll just as glibly say "Oh,
well, not all of the investments have to be in stocks." So
the stock market returns are used to promise marvelous future
performance yet without even blinking they'll say that not
all investment need be in stocks so events such as the recent
decline can be ignored.
Investments are, by Federal law, supposed to be designed around
the risk tolerance of the investor. Depending on your net
worth, age and disposable income is where you fit. As a
general rule, the younger you are the more risk tolerance you
have because you have the time before retirement to ride out the
ups and downs.
There are such things as guaranteed principal and
guaranteed interest contracts. They are much less risky and
as a result pay less percentage interest.
Asset allocation is based on risk
tolerance. Stocks are frequently considered riskier
than CDs, bonds, t-bills and corporate securities. Among
stocks there are different
risks. A typical mix will look like this:
As people's situation change their target portfolio will
change. As you approach retirement age the target changes
from growth to income, as your tolerance for
risk goes down. Monies are moved out of stocks and into
CDs, T-bills and cash, or even into insurance depending on your
goal for an estate.
What I will point out, once again, is that for the current
Social Security system there is an annual assessment made of its
possible future status. It is on such assessments that most
"personal account" advocates rely. So far,
though, the advocates of "personal accounts" have made
no assessment of comparable rigor.
We haven't gotten that far. I'm just arguring for
investigating this possibility. Details would need to be
hammered out and there would need to be regulation as to how
risky an investment can be. The government could even set
up an insurance fund for those who go broke -- similar to the
FDIC.
A full assessment would require a detailed plan, and I agree one
would be needed but I'm just arguing to get you to accept the
idea of a plan first.
Most advocates, it seems, are unaware that Bush said (At
least in Arizona, Colorado, and New Mexico) that retirees would
be forbidden access to their principal amounts during their
lifetimes.
Bush was but one proponent of one possible plan. This idea
was floated with Reagan as well. I have no problem going on
record in disagreeing with Bush's version of this idea.
Lots of personal retirement plans work fine, providing better
appreciation of capital with low risk than monies invested in
SS. They migrate from stock and bond based investments when
a worker is younger to bond, t-bill and insurance based when they
get older. Heck, many give you the option to invest in
T-bills, just like the SS does.
I'm not talking about people getting rich thru this, just
improving their return over monies invested in SS, which is what
FICA amounts to. Even a 1-2% increase will mean a big
difference when calculated over their career lifetime of 40+
years.
What I'm advocating is professionally managed accounts with
investments limited in risk. Account managers would need to
be licensed and bonded. The gov't could require Errors
& Omissions insurance, covering all cases of fraud and
negligence. (Right now it is recommended, not required.)
The vast bulk of monies lost in the market come from three
things:
Fraud & Negligence (cover it with gov't backed
insurance)
Stupidity (all your investments in Enron stock, etc. --
diversify, diversify, diversify)
Greed (disallow leveraging or margin accounts with these
funds)
Again, I'm talking about moving to the next stage of
formulating details. The above three points are where I
would start.
"We haven't gotten that far. I'm just arguring
for investigating this possibility. Details would need to
be hammered out and there would need to be regulation as to how
risky an investment can be. The government could even set
up an insurance fund for those who go broke -- similar to the
FDIC."
Perhaps you are advocating investigation of this possibility but
Bush and the rest were pushing for acceptance of it before
they showed the details.
A prospectus is required by law, too. The
prospectus doesn't fully protect against making a too-risky
investment but at least it is something. Because they were
politicians instead of stockbrokers or fund salesmen Bush and the
rest could get away (as far as the law is concerned) with all
sorts of behavior that would get a stockbroker or fund salesman
in deep trouble. Specifically, sell an investment without
providing a prospectus.
But the real point is that the details are undisclosed.
Absent details, all sorts of claims can be made about how the
system would work/what the rules would (or wouldn't) be, and
nobody can disprove them because there are no details.
With the right make and model of crystal ball I guess it is
possible for someone to investigate the possibility but I
don't have such a tool so I cannot do any
investigation.
The concept is known. Talking about investigating the
concept absent details is non-productive. Unless/until a
real proposal is produced investigation can't be done.
I doubt anyone would claim that it is impossible for dishonest
people to propose and try to sell an investment that is a bad
deal for the buyer. That should mean that anyone
contemplating an investment should demand details - and in some
manner make certain the details aren't just more of the lying
sales pitch. That's good investment advice,
right? Know what
you're doing before committing a cent. With
"personal accounts as they are today nobody can know.
The options are (1) go ahead and accept the concept without
seeing the details, (2) wait for the details before making a
decision, (3) reject the concept without seeing the
details. (1) is clearly a bad move. (2) shows
wisdom. (3) is at least safe, relative to avoiding possible
bad investing.
I advocate at least (2.) Even absent the details I
think it's possible to do enough analysis to become fully
convinced that extreme skepticism is in order. Heck, extreme
skepticism is always in order when considering any new
investment.
Personal investment strategies are not at the heart of the
"personal account" scheme. They are a
mass investment scheme. Mass investments
have far less flexibility compared to personal investments.
You or I could own what for us is a big chunk of X, where X is a
stock or a mutual fund. We can, pretty generally, choose at
any time to sell X and to switch to Y. That may have a
slight effect on the price of X, but usually not that much.
A mass investment organization could own 1000 or 10000 times as
much X. It cannot sell all the X at once with the same ease
an individual can.
You may claim that what I say doesn't matter, that the
personal account scheme will have many possibilities for
investment - and also claim that multiple owners wouldn't
choose to sell at the same time. Really? Let's
say participants can sell at will and that X starts to drop (or
that news comes out that indicates X will have lower profits for
a while.) Won't many of the participants sell X?
I could ask other similar questions. At the very least it
should be recognized that in all probability any actual
"personal account' scheme is going to have strict rules
precisely to avoid the negative effects things like mass sells
would have. Until the rules are shown the scheme cannot
really be evaluated. Wait for the rules to be revealed,
then evaluate.
Oh. And the professionals that will manage. Are these
professionals like were at Lehman Brothers? Merrill
Lynch? Were those bad professionals? If they were
bad, why did nobody notice until it was too late?
Also, name a one or a few 401(k) stock plans that didn't lose
appreciable recently. Were the losses the results of your
(1), (2), or (3)? I don't think so.
P.S. One of the first things I'll look for, in the
unlikely event that actual details for a "personal
account" scheme are ever published, is whether the managers
and overseers of the plan do or do not have a fiduciary duty to
the pariticpants. That is, they will be liable if they take
any action that is not in the best interests of the
participants. So, for instance, if a professional steered a
big investment to his brother-in-law's company and the
brother-in-law absconded with the money the professional
would be liable. (Actual offenses probably would
be less blatant than that.) What I'd want to see is
that the managers, etc. were fully bound by a fiduciary
requirement.
Of course if anyone wants to argue that he's for a system in
which a manager could direct funds to the manager's
brother-in-law's fraudulent company (or the like) he can do
it. I'd surely at least ask: "Why?"
Oh. And the professionals that will manage. Are
these professionals like were at Lehman Brothers? Merrill
Lynch? Were those bad professionals? If they were
bad, why did nobody notice until it was too late?
Apples and oranges. We're talking about two different
departments, and the personal brokerage departments of those
companies were good and one of the reasons those companies had
any sale value left at all -- that is what was sold.
Also, name a one or a few 401(k) stock plans that didn't
lose appreciable recently. Were the losses the results of
your (1), (2), or (3)? I don't think so.
Sigh. OVER TIME is what I'm talking about.
Over a 40+ year period. Back in 1963 the
DJIA was 652 and it is around 9,000 today, with
a peak of just under 15,000 a year ago. Over a
45-year period a static investment JUST IN THE DJIA would have
grown 13x as of today and 23x for someone who would have gotten
out a year ago.
Over EVERY sliding 40-year period since at least 1900 the stock
market has ONLY GONE UP. In the last 108 years the market
has had 33 down years (counting 2008) and 75 up
years.
* * *
So, to sum up, you aren't ruling out the possibility
you just won't make a commitment without hard details.
I understand that.
My prejudice is that "they" will never reveal the
details. That prejudice is reinforced by the last time,
under Bush. They did not reveal the details.
The issue is retirement security for Americans. The scheme
is one of financial investment. To propose that an
investment program (I'll drop the word "scheme"
here) be implemented without telling what the program would
entail is behavior quite similar to the guy who phoned me with a
great stock tip and hung up in disgust when I asked for the
prospectus. It was a pro forma request: I never
would have risked a dime with him anyway. I might as well
buy Rolex watches from a guy in an alley.
One other point to consider: there were not a large number of
financial professionals who spoke or wrote in favor of what Bush
was proposing.
Bush's proposal was short on details, at least what was made
available to the public in general. It was also too
"loose" and you're right in that this concept needs
to be proposed fully, in prospectus form, to be properly
evaluated.
"Sigh. OVER TIME is what I'm talking about.
Over a 40+ year period."
(GROAN.)
So the required disclamer that past results are not a predictor
of future performance is waived for 40+ year periods? I
don't think so.
Besides, what you're saying seems to be just that the money a
worker puts in during the first years of his employment will,
according to history, show a substantial gain. If a worker
starts at 20 and works to 65 that's 5 years worth of
investment that's covered by the 40+ years mantra. On
the rest he's taking a chance, with the chance getting
bigger, the more recently the money was invested. That is
implicit in your claim. That also makes your claim rather
worthless.
Your argument also totally ignores that the stock market is a
market. That's a venue in which something is traded,
where sellers and buyers conduct transactions. In a market
prices go up when buyers outweigh sellers, go down when sellers
outweigh buyers. For the last 30 or so years the ranks of
the buyers have been swollen by all those 401(k) and similar
retirement plans. That means, to some extent, the only
reason 401(k) (and other) portfolios have increased in value is
that the 401(k) plans are investing. When they start
selling the effect will be the opposite: prices will be driven
down. Providing for retirement specifically means saving (in some
manner) now to provide funds ot live on in the future. It
is not ever-pyramiding investment, it's invesment with the
goal of cashing in that investment after retirement. Which
part of the past history of the stock market is for a period in
which that was a major component of what was being done? If
there is no such part then the cited past performance isn't
really even pertinent, in addition to being worthless.
It is considerations such as the above that need to be made with
respect to "personal accounts." It is folly,
outright deception, or a combination of both to only look at the
beginning phase of the plan, during which the purchases by
workers participating in the plan will far outweigh sales by
participants in the plan (essentially no sales at all for the
first 10 years, given that people within 10 years of retirement
cannot participate.) A real analysis will examine what wil
happen when sales by retirees (or their heirs) outweigh purchases
by current workers. The chance of such an analysis being
done by the proponents is so tiny that it makes sense to just
reject the scheme out of hand: they are not going to ever make an
honest presentation.
"So, to sum up, you aren't ruling out the
possibility you just won't make a commitment without
hard details. I understand that."
I don't think any person should make a commitment to
something so vital unless the person can see the details.
Judging from the performance of the crew who have been pushing
the scheme that is not ever going to happen.
I'd further my position into advocating that unless/until
details are provided the discussion is over
(before it really began - that absense of details is a killer.)
Nor is there any appreciable evidence that those who pushed and
are pushing "personal accounts" care in the slightest
about the retirement security of American workers. What
they want is to soften the voters up for a default on the trust
fund so it will not be repaid and taxes on the higher brackets
not raised to cover that repayment. They are the
ones who do not want taxes raised to cover the trust fund, once
the benefits go above FICA returns and they're also the ones
who most suggest that Congress could default on the trust
fund. The only reason to default is to avoid raising taxes,
and that's their agenda. Any
"concern" they show for the retirement security of
Americans is a false front.
I think your fancy graphic may have broken Firefox 2. When I try
to view this thread in Firefox 2 (really iceweasel in Debian
Etch), I get a strange effect where the same line is repeated as
I scroll down the page, and I can't see the rest of the
thread beyond this point.
I wonder if the problem can be reproduced by anyone else.
I wonder if it has to do with the width of the reply frames. In
Opera, the graphic is a bit wider than the text width-- maybe FF2
is having trouble with that.
Ok, I only have a problem with Firefox 2.0 with Kai's style
sheet. The default one works fine. Also, I don't
really know if the graphic is the problem. It just seemed
to be the main thing that was out of the ordinary. But the
length of the threads might also have something to do with it.
Perhaps the simplest thing is to create new, unrelated programs
that take care of retirees and dependents, thus render Social
Security unimportant, from whence position it can be cleanly and
firmly canceled -- just cut off entirely, all at once, since
nobody needs it.
What's wrong with just paying social security out of general
revenues? Eliminate FICA taxes entirely and just pay the same
benefits out of the general revenue. It'd eliminate a whole
lot of handwringing and be more efficient at the same time.
Furthermore, this funding scheme would be better for society as a
whole since taxation supporting general revenue is far more
progressive than payroll taxes are.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that! Afterall, our
paychecks deductions for income tax are not itemized into
spending categorizies. I guess it just depends on if there
is any benefit to splitting out Social Security.
Basically, this whole thread is handwringing about what the Trust
Fund really is. (Well, there is also a separate argument
about private accounts, which is essentially an argument for or
against mandatory private investments that would directly reduce
the portion of FICA going into the traditional Social Security
program.)
My whole position comes down to the fact that you can't count
money spent as money saved (unless you have confidence that the
money spent is over and above that which is necessary to run the
government AND it can later be redeemed as an equivalent tax
savings), which is why I claim the Trust Fund is simply an
accounting gimmick. If the Trust Fund is simply dumped into the
general fund and is immediately spent, then it ceases to exist as
a net investment, and becomes an obligation for future
generations.
In summary, your solution makes the Trust Fund irrelevant.
I'm just trying to argue that, yes, making the Trust
Fund irrelevant is fair to tax payers over time. Basically, I
could have skipped all the verbosity and just listed the four
conditions in Section 2 of the essay that explain how the current
Social Security system passes a tax burden on to future
generations. It is no different then deficit spending.
Well, there I go again. I should have just said,
"Yeah, your're exactly right."
Redesigning Social Security
Several years ago, President Bush proposed privatization as a means to reform the US Social Security system. The debate that followed showed that while most Americans were highly skeptical of privatization, there was a lack of consensus regarding how to frame the problem.
Since a problem is unlikely to be solved before it is well understood, I wrote this essay as an exercise in understanding the fundamental flaw in the US Social Security system. If we can agree on the problem, then perhaps the solution becomes obvious (though not necessarily easy).
Redesigning Social Security
Matt Fulkerson
1 Social Security Design Flaw
The US Social Security system has a built-in design flaw relating to fluctuating age demographics. The system is designed to pay retirees the same amount per person, with adjustments for inflation, from one generation to the next. If the population of a given generation swells relative to the rest of the population, it is inevitable that the system will produce a big surplus while that generation is employed, followed by a big crunch at retirement.
The fixed-payout-per-person model, considered alone, will not necessarily lead to an inevitable big crunch. The other key ingredients are the Social Security Trust Fund coupled with the requirement that the federal government not run a surplus. These ingredients lead to inequity among the generations.
2 Generational Inequity
Generational inequity arises from the following characteristics of the current Social Security system.
The net result is that more populous generations receive more from the system and less populous generations receive less.
The current Social Security system operates roughly in the following manner. Workers pay social security tax, and the amount they receive at retirement is based on how much was paid into the system. Any surplus funds are invested in the Social Security Trust Fund. The money invested is quickly spent by the federal government.
Let us examine the most rosy scenario where the non-social-security deficit is zero, and a more populous generation is succeeded by a less populous generation. (Presumably, it is already understood that any non-zero deficit increases the tax burden of future generations.) Throughout the working years of the more populous generation, a social security surplus will be generated. That surplus reduces the tax burden of the more populous generation, due to the requirement that the federal operating budget must not run a net surplus. When the more populous generation retires, the social security surplus will turn into a deficit, and the less populous generation must pay higher taxes as retirees draw down the Social Security Trust Fund. The less populous generation gets stuck with the bill.
Contrary to popular perception, the Social Security Trust Fund is not really an investment. Rather, the Social Security surplus is used to make up a tax shortfall during the working years of a more populous generation. The Trust Fund effectively becomes a vehicle for transferring the burden of a tax shortfall on to less populous future generations.
3 Transparent Solution
There are many possible convoluted solutions to the inequity problem. However, one solution stands out as being particularly transparent, and is therefore more likely to be readily acceptable to Americans of all ages.
Social Security could operate on a total-fixed-payout-per-generation basis rather than a fixed-payout-per-person basis, while avoiding any Social Security surplus altogether. This means that a more populous generation would pay lower social security taxes and receive proportionately lower retirement benefits. Such a system would completely eliminate the Trust Fund and the accompanying generational inequity. A more populous generation would be well aware that they were paying lower Social Security taxes and could take action to increase personal retirement savings. A less populous generation would be squeezed a little more during its working years, but could expect to receive a higher level of retirement benefits in return. The level of retirement benefits should be low enough so that the burden on the least populous generation is not too large.
4 Convoluted Solution
It is also possible to keep the current system, but adjust for generational inequity. For example, taxes on a more populous generation’s retirement benefits could be raised. However, absent any understanding of the generational inequity issue, the higher taxation level would lead to a perception that the more populous generation of retirees is getting a raw deal. Thus, a transition to the transparent solution is preferable as it makes the issue of generational inequity explicit.
5 How To Understand Social Security
We have seen that the Social Security Trust Fund is not a true investment. Rather, it has the effect of transferring the tax burden from a more populous generation on to future generations.
Social Security is really a compact between workers and retirees. Current workers agree to support current retirees and expect that future generations will continue the tradition.
This is not how Social Security is most commonly viewed, but the common view of Social Security as a personal investment leads to general confusion and a lack of understanding of generational inequity. As such, any attempts to privatize Social Security should be resisted as an unnecessary blurring of lines between a social program and private investment. Rather, the appropriate topic of debate for society is the desired level of Social Security benefits.