Things that have value

mcrbids

Mon Dec 01 09:10:51 -0800 2008

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Am I stealing when I throw garbage into a garbage can that's not mine? 

Am I stealing when I throw a rock from a gravel road I don't live on?

Am I stealing when I let my dog take a sip of water from an irrigation ditch that's not my farm, when I'm out taking a walk?

All of these examples can be easily considered a form of stealing, yet few would think twice about doing any of them. The reason is that the value of the item being "stolen" is extremely low.

Stuff has become cheap enough that the average bloke doesn't value it much. Put another way, we've become so wealthy that people don't give a damn about wealth. At least, not like they did historically.

See, 200 years ago, stuff was *precious*. A watch was a very expensive item. And having things like watches and comfortable leather shoes was itself a rarity. When you had stuff, you were special somehow, because most of people's posessions were self-made. Barrels were hand made. So were clothes. So were houses, transportation, and gifts.

But with the rise of the factory age in the 19th century, stuff became cheaper. And cheaper. And cheaper still. Year after year, the relative cost of stuff dropped, the relative quality against price rose, and stuff became less and less and less valuable.

Because economics teaches us, stuff has value in accordance with its scarcity. We value what is scarce, we waste what is not. Owning the only kazoo in the world makes your kazoo a rare artifact and makes you rich. Owning a kazoo purchased in a bag of a dozen at the local dollar store probably results in the kazoo being thrown away within a day or so.

And this is true in all aspects of our lives. Rich people long for free time and/or a cause to extinguish their boredom, poor people want... stuff. Big house, big car, big TV, etc....

Does it surprise me now, when the average middle-class worker can really afford to live like the kings of yore, that the average person values stuff so little that they wouldn't think it particularly unethical to lift a bit here and there?

Compare this concept to honesty and the "white lie". (Oh, you look wonderful, dear!)

Things that have value

Thomas Lord

Mon Dec 01 10:05:55 -0800 2008

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Am I stealing when I throw garbage into a garbage can that's not mine?

I assume that you mean a substantial volume of garbage rather than something like a cigarette butt or candy wrapper. In that case, yes, you are stealing.

Hey is that you doing that to the dumpster of our building because we've been looking for you!

Refuse hauling costs good money. People pay for it. When (as happens to us from time to time) someone comes and fills up your receptacle, depriving you of use of it, now you are paying to have that other person's garbage hauled. It's against the law and it is certainly a civil offense. (And it's a real problem when it happens! It's just rude if nothing else.)

Am I stealing when I throw a rock from a gravel road I don't live on?

You mean that you don't own. As with the garbage cans, it depends on the scale. One little kid throws three rocks into the pond before a responsible adult says "don't do that"? Hardly a crime. A gang of teens starts hanging out by the pond to sneak smokes and while there they idly clear 10ft of road of gravel? You betcha that's stealing. Stupid teenagers. Damn kids.

Am I stealing when I let my dog take a sip of water from an irrigation ditch that's not my farm, when I'm out taking a walk?

No, that's trespassing and reckless endangerment. Please keep your deficating and urinating animal away from that ditch. That water winds up on your food.

---

Of course, I still like "Big Tony" in the Simpsons, explaining to Bart why he'd like his boys from the gentleman's club to store a truck full of bootleg cigarettes in the Simpson's house: "Bart, suppose a man's family is starving. Is it wrong for him to steal a loaf of bread? Well, suppose the man's family happens to like cigarettes...."

-t

Things that have value

gstovall

Mon Dec 01 13:37:25 -0800 2008

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"throw garbage into a garbage can that's not mine"

Argh...pet peeve of mine.  There is an individual in the area that is sneaking a bag of their trash into my trash after I put mine out, and it costs me an extra $1.25 for every bag they add to my trash.  Numerous times, I have sorted through the trash they have added to mine, looking for some identification, but they have carefully snipped all the addresses off of all envelopes and receipts each time.

I adjusted the time I put out trash until much closer to pickup time, but they just adjusted theirs to be even later.  My drop off point is not visible from the house, so I can't stand and watch.  Have considered getting a wireless camera to watch for them...

Things that have value

rubycodez

Mon Dec 01 15:10:39 -0800 2008

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there's someone in our cul-de-sac that throws their excess nasty garbage into our recycling bins which then means it won't be taken away and bin gets big orange very sticky sticker stuck to it too, been thinking about that wireless camera too for some 21st century community justice (which means mailing photograph of the perp doing their dirty deed to all neighbors, maybe put picture on my family web site too.  ridicule and shame, just like the puritans and their stockades but without the back ache and rotten fruit)

Things that have value

Petr Mareš

Fri Dec 05 09:39:38 -0800 2008

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You can put a lock on your garbage can. I would also consider leaving a note informing that he is a thief....

Things that have value

gstovall

Fri Dec 05 11:50:16 -0800 2008

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:)  Already tried the note route.  The fact that the individual takes the time to snip all identifying information off envelopes and receipts indicates that he/she is aware they are doing wrong and don't care.

The individual is putting the trash on mine inbetween the time that I put the trash out the morning the trash is picked up, and the time the truck rolls past and picks it up, so a lock would not help any, since it would have to be unlocked for the trashman to pick up the trash.

But thanks for the suggestions!  :)

Things that have value

Charles E Hill

Mon Dec 01 14:57:53 -0800 2008

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In my area you pay for a certain size bin to be disposed of weekly, and pickup is in front of your house.  The cost appears on your monthly utilities (water/sewer/garbage) bill from the Village.

If your bin isn't 100% full, someone else popping some trash in isn't stealing.  It costs neither you nor them an extra cent.  I've done it before, when I find rubbish floating around on the street.  I pop it into the nearest non-full bin, if it is trash day.

Anything above and beyond your allotted bin requires a special sticker, which you purchase.  You can stack 20 bags of rubbish to be picked up, but if they aren't accompanied by 20 brightly colored stickers (about $3.50 each), they'll still be there that afternoon.  Compostable yard waste is bagged, tagged and priced differently. Recyclable material is comingled, free pickup and unlimited in volume.

Things that have value

gstovall

Mon Dec 01 15:26:24 -0800 2008

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In the previous city I lived in (a large Dallas suburb), for a fixed monthly cost, ANY amount of trash was allowed each week.  When we moved, for three weeks running, I threw away approx 50 black 30gal lawn bags of junk each week.  Yes, the attic had gotten THAT FULL of useless stuff.  All the good stuff went to the salvation army, all the electronics in one pile, all the recycleable stuff in another pile, and all the semi good stuff was piled in a separate spot on the curb so the scavengers could have what they wanted, but the city was really set up to handle it.  Any LARGE items (sofas, refrigerators, filing cabinets,etc) were picked up by a special claw truck.

Should we have generated/kept so much useless stuff?  Of course not.  But it was nice to be able to get rid of it as fast as we could shovel, when the time came to change our ways.

Things that have value

Charles E Hill

Mon Dec 01 15:36:39 -0800 2008

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Yeah.  When I was in Idaho you could dump as much as you want, as long as you hauled it yourself to the county dump and were a resident of that county.  (Not all counties in Idaho were that way, but where I lived was.)  It did come in handy when moving.

The Village where I now live has a "free garbage day" once a year, in Spring.  You can unload anything and everything, including construction waste, for free on that weekend.  People come from miles around with large trucks to pick thru what goes out.  We nabbed a full oak dining set, table and 6 chairs, this year.  Not a darn thing wrong with it, just the people got a new one.

This year was different in that people were driving around in rented U-Haul trucks picking thru metal.  As far as I can tell, not one piece of metal made it to actual pickup this year.

stealing and declining value

gstovall

Mon Dec 01 15:01:20 -0800 2008

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Hmmm...my wife and I have taught our children that anything that is not theirs, no matter how small, is to be treated with respect.  That means not keeping ANY overage if a clerk miscounts, etc.

Now, we STILL have difficulty getting them to treat their OWN stuff with respect, sometimes.  ;)

Status of Ethics with Younger People

President4242

Mon Dec 01 09:41:08 -0800 2008

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Given the "moral" examples in the newspaper every day that hold up investment bankers "shorting" stocks and regular bankers overleveraging loans at 40x the rate of deposits, we're worried about students stealing from stores and cheating on tests?

The whole damn system is ethically suspect and bankrupt, these kids are just mimicing what they see the adults do.

Status of Ethics with Younger People

ah.clem

Mon Dec 01 15:04:47 -0800 2008

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But you know what?  They don't have to.  Sure, it can be used as an excuse, but it's not an excuse.  These kids know it's wrong, otherwise why would the results have to be confidential in order to get them to admit they are liars and thieves? (Confidentiality is not mentioned in this artice, I saw it in the article I read a few days ago on this story.)

Status of Ethics with Younger People

gstovall

Mon Dec 01 15:32:49 -0800 2008

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Yes, it seems to be universal now.  We live in a small, rural school district, and theft has gotten to be such a problem at the school that the school administration has given up even trying to catch/discipline culprits.

My children have had shoes, sweaters, etc. stolen.  Yeah, and we have to replace them, of course.  It's especially bad when it happens to be the kid's basketball shoes, and we have to buy another pair of the shoes so the child can suit out and play for the team.

Shoot...a couple of cameras watching the lockers would do wonders.

Of course, this is a school that apparently has some kids that think it's a hoot to slit all the tires on all the busses.  Replacing THOSE certainly put a dent in a poor rural district's finances...

Status of Ethics with Younger People

President4242

Mon Dec 01 15:58:16 -0800 2008

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But you know what?  They don't have to.

Well, given the curve though- if they don't, somebody else will, and they'll get a lower grade because of it.

Same reason the bankers did it in a way- if they didn't offer credit to the poor at usurious prices, goes the thinking, somebody else will, and we can't have THEM getting the profits!

The problem with unethical behavior is once it's allowed in, it taints EVERYTHING, and the honest man will suffer.

Status of Ethics with Younger People

Tim S

Mon Dec 01 16:39:01 -0800 2008

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This reminds me of a rather discusting news story I read recently (link). I'm still realtivly young (late 20's) but behaviour like this discusts me. The sad thing about many of this kids is that the driver will probably have a new car in a couple of weeks and the accident forgotten.

I am proud to say that I never cheated in school (although was once "accused" of it after submitting an assignment that was actually given a mark of 100%, something that I put in a lot of work for) or university. I'm sure many who cheated will find out the hard way once getting into the workforce that there cheating hasn't helped them. It's pretty obvious who has no clue as a software engineer once you have worked with them for a short period.