results, please?

Thomas Lord

Thu May 15 13:53:23 -0700 2008

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The most concrete actual result I've heard of from the credit system is the creation of a start-up company that plans to dump iron into the ocean to encourage plankton blooms. This is not a plan I'm particularly comfortable with, personally, and I fail to see (a) why it is ecologically sane or (b) why the net effect isn't just more carbon dumping (I don't believe the plankton bloom, if that's what happens, will offset the production licensed by the credits).

Is there any solid evidence of these things doing actual good?

-t

results, please?

Uncle Entity

Thu May 15 15:17:40 -0700 2008

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Here's some evidence (6mb pdf).

It provides a short history of carbon trading and discusses a number of ‘lessons unlearned’. Nine case studies from different parts of the world provide examples of the outcomes – on the ground – of various carbon ‘offset’ schemes.

Haven't read it yet but I heard an interview with one of the authors on the radio a while back. Very interesting stuff.

results, please?

Thomas Lord

Thu May 15 18:36:17 -0700 2008

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For those playing along at home and missing the punchline, read the report.

It is, uh, not optimistic about offset trading.

This is not to imply that I've even really begun to digest the apparently well footnoted 360+ pages.

Spontaneous quick reading group, anyone? We could divide it up into pieces and report back.... Might be more bother than anyone is up for, though.

-t

Carbon Trade at One Million Tons--Profit

chinakow

Thu May 15 16:53:00 -0700 2008

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How can the market grow? I thought there was supposed to be a fixed amount of pollution that these credits account for. What am I missing that makes the statement, "The important thing is the market grows?"

The idea of giving people who creat carbon offsets carbon credits seems dangerous to me. It misses the point of setting emission levels, which always seemed to be to reduce pollution. Doing this doesn't account for the other chemicals the factories will be emitting when they continue to pollute as usual and point to their credits and say, "See, we're doing our part."

Also keep an eye out for the words, "Carbon bubble" in the newspapers of 2020 or there abouts.

Carbon Trade at One Million Tons--Profit

Uncle Entity

Thu May 15 17:20:43 -0700 2008

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Also keep an eye out for the words, "Carbon bubble" in the newspapers of 2020 or there abouts.

Already happened.

When the system was first devised the issuers asked the polluting industries for an estimate on their co2 output and not being stupid gave them a high number. It was all good, credits are being bought and sold, until people started to realize that there were way too many credits issued and the bottom fell out of the market.

Back to the drawing board they went...

Another interesting side effect of this program was that businesses got the credits for free but had to value them on the books at their market value for various reasons. This allowed them to pass along the 'costs' of the credits to their customers as if they bought them and reap a few billion extra euros profit from this extra operating expense.

Back to the drawing board yet again...

I think that's in the report in my other post just in case anyone wants a reference.

Carbon Trade at One Million Tons--Profit

Spider

Thu May 15 20:19:51 -0700 2008

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They mention New Zealand setting up a carbon trading scheme.  A lot of people do not agree with what has been proposed so far.

Elections this year and the present coalition Government (that includes the Greens) led by the Labour Party may not remain in power long enough to carry out their carbon trading proposals.  Two major industries in NZ have already complained to the gov. that their proposals will cost them millions $. One of them, an aluminium smelter, says it will close the plant if their proposals on carbon trading are implemented.  NZ can ill afford to lose any more industries. A number of manufacturers have left already, and meat processing plants have closed.