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- Carved in Stone Bandwith Caps
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zogger Thu, 08 May 2008 19:29:21 PDT Electronic Freedom
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We've all seen the ads, "unlimited internet"!, but for a lot of people, it's limited, when they get the big cutoff notice for "excessive use". Even in the fine print it is hard to find exact figures. Now it looks to be changing what with huge movie files and music files being common. Numerous providers are now planning on having set bandwith limits, after that it will be some much more per gigabyte.
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.."If the caps are generous (and Comcast's 250GB cap is), being clear about them is certainly a welcome shift. However, many caps won't be so generous. And the sudden decision by the U.S. broadband industry to adopt a system where "excessive use" is punished by per-GB charges raises a lot of new questions."
ed.z.: I tell you what sucks worse, is being on *dialup* in the 21st century and being cutoff for "excessive use"..yes..it still happens.. :p
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kai Thu, 08 May 2008 21:37:26 PDT
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Yep, here in Australia I don't think you'll find a truly unlimited internet plan.
CRAP! I typed up a huge reply here, which somehow didn't make it through to the front page.
Long story short - 250GB is more than enough for a home user. ISPs have to make money, the bandwidth isn't free - someone's paying for it.
I don't care how many movies you're renting, legal MP3s you're downloading, stock photography you're viewing and linux ISOs you're downloading - to get through more than 250GB per month, it can't all be legal downloads.
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rubycodez Fri, 09 May 2008 06:36:39 PDT
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250GB is more than enough for a home user
to get through more than 250GB per month, it can't all be legal downloads.
oh really? Often our clients will just buy the paper licenses and let my company worry about physical media. that's really all that many DVD ISO's of enterprise software and patches, for a big client's project I'll pull down something like size that at home. And I don't do it it work, not with our ancient single T1, hah.
Never had any complaints from my ISP at&t/yahoo, though they suck in other ways.
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President4242 Fri, 09 May 2008 10:39:02 PDT
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You're likely on a "business" plan anyway with a T1.
I'm on a similar plan. I pay for my bandwidth and have guaranteed thruput. Unlike most home plans, my only limit is my relatively slow ADSL speed (1.5MB down, 868KB up). While I rather doubt I could exceed 64 DVD's worth of downloaded material per month, especially since I get my entertainment media out of a computer hooked up to a DirectTV satelite dish, there's nothing in the fine print of my contract preventing it, only the throttle on the ADSL line, and I can have that increased if I pay for it.
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Harry the Bastard Fri, 09 May 2008 12:47:30 PDT
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250Gb is enough for a home user ... You are using your home connection as a work connection. You even admit that.
Perhaps coding in ruby has diminished your critical thinking capabilities? (FFS ... you even quoted the very first line!)
If the foo shits, wear it!
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rubycodez Fri, 09 May 2008 14:25:24 PDT
- running a home is partly running a business, you're saying back when I was self-employed I should have changed my connection type to business grade? ruby (my hobby language mostly) makes me think of simplest solutions to problems
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kai Fri, 09 May 2008 14:26:39 PDT
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250GB is more than enough for a home user
Often our clients will just buy the paper licenses and let my company...
Sounds like business use to me - and are you really downloading more than 60 single-layer DVDs worth of stuff, in one month? I don't think so.
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rubycodez Fri, 09 May 2008 19:34:13 PDT
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it varies. but between major projects and personal projects i believe it could get on the order of couple hundred gig in a month. I know I did 20 gig this past week just personal, no major projects going. If the line was going full blast that would be half a day transfer time, but was spread out over almost a week so not "clogging the pipe" or denying my neighbors full bandwidth. It's what I paid for
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kai Fri, 09 May 2008 19:45:52 PDT
- I'm not trying to get into a flame war here or anything, but Rubycodez, you're still talking about business use. If you read the fine print on your home grade ADSL connection, you'll probably be surprised to find out this is not what you paid for - the ISP will not guarantee you a full-speed ADSL 2/2+ connection to be used at 100% utilisation. I'm all for bandwidth caps, it will reduce the price of internet for some light users, and extremely heavy users can pay for the capacity they're using. If you're using your home connection to download stuff for work, then you can claim this usage against your tax return and the company can compensate you for it. Now, what I don't agree with for bandwidth caps are small ones with outrageous excess bandwidth charges. Here in Australia, we have something like a factor of 1000 between the most expensive and cheapest excess data (not counting the free excess data that shapes your connection to 64k or something like that). Yes, it's generally the largest Tier1 ISPs that have the most expensive excess data (10-15c per MB - $100-150/GB) versus some that charge mere cents per GB...
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rubycodez Fri, 09 May 2008 20:19:42 PDT
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but I'm not even at 30% utilization when doing these downloads, don't need a 100% guarentee as far as peak capacity. And my ISP is pushing people to movies on demand and TV on demand, they aren't short on capacity around here.
bear in mind I live on "North America's telecommunications hub and word's largest internet exchange point by volume", I can understand that my behaviour would be a horrible thing in many other parts of the U.S., a parasite and drain on others, added cost to ISP etc. But not here, i'm just a teaspoon of water in what's going over niagra falls, so to speak.
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unreality Thu, 08 May 2008 20:38:09 PDT
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And the sudden decision by the U.S. broadband industry to adopt a system where "excessive use" is punished by per-GB charges raises a lot of new questions."
We already have that in NZ. ISPs generally offer 2 options:
Pay for every so many GB after the cap and not get throttled, or get throttled when you hit your cap. Throttling decreases you to dial-up speed
Wish I could have a 250GB cap. Stuck with 30. The ISP I'm currently with used to do 200GB caps, at $220NZD. (Not including the base speed fee, about $50NZD for max/max) Now the best the offer is 25GB (With phone) for $129NZD
I come from the land down under. Where the internet crawls, and ISPs plunder.
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Harry the Bastard Thu, 08 May 2008 21:31:29 PDT
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Same in Australia (VK land if your a ham)
Varies from one provider to another, some providers offer 100GB at reasonable rates, others offer 2..6GB for the same money. (Think monopoly provider giving virtually the worst rates!)
There are even 100 megabyte plans.
None of this unlimited stuff here, I'm afraid.
Now that the USA is becoming a 3rd world country due to its economic issues, they are being treated like the rest of the world. (Actually, I on't really think that ... I think the USA ISP's have suddenly woken up to a nice way to make more money. It will probably mainly affect those who pirate lots of movies. (Or legally download lots of movies!)
This does NOT bode well for the future of HDTV streamed across the web though ... HiDef video tends to be MUCH bigger in data size than Standard definition.
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phred14 Fri, 09 May 2008 05:44:40 PDT Electronic Freedom
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I'd rather have an honest open cap than a hidden on, with "letters in the night" telling me that I've violated TOS. Next is some sort of metering, at their end so I can see what they think my monthly usage-to-date is, and at my end as a cross-check.
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zotz Fri, 09 May 2008 05:58:30 PDT
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"after that it will be some much more per gigabyte."
The thing is, after that, it should be the same or less for the additional. But hey, if this new business model catches on, perhaps we will see wholesale prices go above retail prices which might be fun.
all the best,
drew
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Farrell J. McGovern Fri, 09 May 2008 07:30:23 PDT
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I have only one word in reply to this...Antitrust!
ttyl
Farrell
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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AB3A Fri, 09 May 2008 08:53:16 PDT
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Telephone companies have always charged for use. The model works. I would rather see a model where you pay a certain up-front charge for the access, and then a certain amount per month for each Gigabyte of traffic downloaded to you. The amount should be nominally small, but it should be significant enough for people to monitor what they're using.
This would bring some sanity to the Internet Service Providers. Those who are heavy users will pay more than those who are light users. It's no different than any other public utility service such as gas, water, POTS, or Electricity.
In return, we should have guarantees that they'll act as a true common carrier and not throttle traffic except for giving services such as VOIP priority. And like other utilities, they should be allowed to charge, based upon time-of-day pricing.
I feel this would bring us a sense of sanity to this industry. It's just an internet connection. Why make it any more than that?
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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squiggleslash Fri, 09 May 2008 10:59:30 PDT About Technocrat.net
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Minutes and seconds are easy to understand. Phone calls are easy to control. Devices switched on and off are easy to control.
Megabytes aren't. WTF is a megabyte? One minute of video? 100 web pages? If someone sends several gigabytes of data to my PC it hasn't requested, how can the ISP detect that?
Use charging only works in situations where you can, as an end user, control and quantify use. This is not something the Internet is built for.
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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kai Fri, 09 May 2008 14:33:09 PDT
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Minutes and seconds are easy to understand. Phone calls are easy to control. Devices switched on and off are easy to control. Megabytes aren't. WTF is a megabyte? One minute of video? 100 web pages? If someone sends several gigabytes of data to my PC it hasn't requested, how can the ISP detect that?
WTF is a megabyte - it's easy - it's about 1/5th of a song. It's a whole bunch of web pages. It's 1/2 a youtube video. It's 10 emails without attachments. ISPs with caps have monitoring systems where you can see your cumulative usage for the month in a easy to understand format. You generally get an email from them when you hit, say, 80% and then again at 100%. As for gigs of data being sent to your PC that you didn't request - seriously, how can this happen, unless someone decides to DDoS you.
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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AB3A Fri, 09 May 2008 15:18:30 PDT
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Most medium to high end routers and switches have traffic counters so that you can do diagnostics. It shouldn't be a big deal for the ISP to interrogate the switch you get your service from for how much traffic you've been making.
And if you care, you can always configure your low end firewall to keep track of how much traffic is addressed to it. Note that I did say that you should be billed by the Gigabyte. Perhaps it ought to be based upon how much outbound activity comes from your node, since you can't always control what comes in. High school bullies could organize a large group of kids to send substantial amounts of traffic to some particular household, and they'd have to pay for it, even if it wasn't asked for. So we're looking at upload traffic and acknowledgements.
This would also be an incentive for people to secure their home PC against malware. After all, malware could easily raise your bill.
You, as an end-user can control how much water, electricity, gas, and telephone service you use. You can even control what time of day it is used. So I humbly suggest that this sort of billing might not be such a bad idea after all.
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zotz Fri, 09 May 2008 11:32:27 PDT
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"Telephone companies have always charged for use."
Not here. Not for local at least. Long distance, yes.
Why should heavy users pay more than light users? Is it necessary for a profitable model?
People who talk a lot on their land lines don't pay more than those who hardly use their phones where I am.
What about driving on the roads. Should your yearly registration be mileage based?
Should your plane tickets be based on your weight?
Some things can work one way, some the other, some both. Some things will "look" different depending on which way you play it.
Why not give both options but require the truth in advertising and come ons?
all the best,
drew
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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phred14 Fri, 09 May 2008 12:38:49 PDT
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Why should heavy users pay more than light users? Is it necessary for a profitable model?
Heavy users use more resource. It depends on the specifics and costs of provisioning. For a phone, most of the infrastructure needs to be put into place, just for availability. So for local calls there isn't enough time-based cost adder to put in the expense for billing based on it. Long distance includes a pinch-point and the economics are different, so they do have usage-based billing. Incidentally, we have tiered billing, rather like what they're talking about for cable.
What about driving on the roads. Should your yearly registration be mileage based?
Don't forget that excise tax on tires and gasoline tax are both roughly mileage based. People who drive more do pay more in taxes to pay for the roads.
Should your plane tickets be based on your weight?
Maybe. They're already getting more stringent about checked baggage, and it's all about the weight. As the fuel gets more expensive, they get more uppity about weight. They've probably avoided weight-based ticket prices because that's a legal minefield of discrimination lawsuits. But yes, it costs more to transport a planload of heavy people than a planeload of light people, given that the basic unit is the pair of buttocks, not the pound.
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zotz Fri, 09 May 2008 14:54:41 PDT
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"Heavy users use more resource. It depends on the specifics and costs of provisioning. For a phone, most of the infrastructure needs to be put into place, just for availability. So for local calls there isn't enough time-based cost adder to put in the expense for billing based on it. Long distance includes a pinch-point and the economics are different, so they do have usage-based billing. Incidentally, we have tiered billing, rather like what they're talking about for cable."
Perhaps, perhaps not.
One guy pulls down hugh amound from two blocks over, another pulls down decent amounts from the other side of the world. Which of those two should pay more? Speaking of fair.
I say that we would be better off with flat rate pricing if the economics can be made to work that way. I say the nature of the net will be better if we can do that. I say we don't want people watching every byte coming and going. It could change the way people interact on the net in a negative way.
If you buy a T1 net connection here, you can stuff as much down it as possible. Sure, it costs, but there you have it. Aren't we really running into this problem due to "less than frank" selling? Seems broadband was sold telling people about the benefits of multimedia use. Then when people finally start using it for multimedia, they are now some sort of hogs? People less "unlimited accounts" that have limits. And the problem lies with the people pushing the limites on their unlimited accounts? Aren't we also running into some problems due to copyright laws getting in the way of a good net topology?
all the best,
drew
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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Uncle Entity Fri, 09 May 2008 15:45:16 PDT
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I say that we would be better off with flat rate pricing if the economics can be made to work that way.
You don't think they will offer a speed capped flat rate connection eventually if this becomes standard?
Don't have to count bytes because you can't possibly go over the limit, wouldn't get the benefit of 'speed bursts' when you download a new Fedora DVD but you would get what you pay for.
So you could either sign up for flat rate or high speed monthly quota capped connections.
There is no problem with the economics it's just that people want to stay with the current model where the light users subsidize the heavy users and that seems to be no longer sustainable as the average user becomes the heavy user through online TV and internet phone, etc.
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- How about charging per Gigabyte?
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zotz Fri, 09 May 2008 19:02:22 PDT
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"You don't think they will offer a speed capped flat rate connection eventually if this becomes standard?"
Everyone is speed capped now, right? I have heard of no unlimited speed connections being offered.
"Don't have to count bytes because you can't possibly go over the limit, wouldn't get the benefit of 'speed bursts' when you download a new Fedora DVD but you would get what you pay for."
They could offer a combo plan as well.
Minimum speed always, burstable so long as monthly quota is not exceeded.
I have two big issues with the standard games I see being played.
1. One thing is advertised, another delivered.
2. Pricing on the overage is way high and out of line with the initial buy.
"So you could either sign up for flat rate or high speed monthly quota capped connections."
There you go. Choice. What a nice thing.
all the best,
drew
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Uncle Entity Fri, 09 May 2008 19:44:11 PDT
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How much choice are you going to get with 'one size fits all' codified into law?
Not saying you're (overtly) calling for that but others are.
So now they are addressing your #1 point above by telling you what 'terms and conditions apply'.
#2 probably has a lot to do with them wishing that the lower bandwidth users will fear the overage charges and step up to a higher priced plan. Maximize revenue and all that.
Your best choice is to work to bust the pricing system that a government monopoly encourages.
Or just enjoy the leisurely pace a low bandwidth connection provides, I do almost all my web surfing either on my cellphone or tethered to it and don't have any problem not downloading the latest cat dancing video. I do visit my parents every couple of weeks and download the newest Dr Who and BSG episodes (when in season) but that's mostly to use their ISP's usenet server.
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zotz Sat, 10 May 2008 03:52:06 PDT
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" How much choice are you going to get with 'one size fits all' codified into law?
Not saying you're (overtly) calling for that but others are."Are you referring to "net neutrality" here or something else?
Re: Your idea on #2, lovely isn't it?
" Your best choice is to work to bust the pricing system that a government monopoly encourages."
Hey, where I live, the government loves up a monopoly.
I have yet to be convinced that you canhave a Free Market operating in this area. Do any of these ISPs operate without the benefit of government "encouraged" rights of way? Other little perks?
"Or just enjoy the leisurely pace a low bandwidth connection provides,"
Actually, I've got a fairly decent connection for what it is.
But I still say the players should not be able to advertise one thing and deliver another.
all the best,
drew
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