Technocrat

Idiots with green laser pointers...

Richard Young
Wed Jun 18 21:23:00 -0700 2008
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Australian Police have just arrested a 19-year-old man who shone a green laser at a Police helicopter.

The crew were temporarily distracted and disoriented, but managed to land safely.

This has become something of an epidemic in Australia, with dumb kids shining the laser pointers at aircraft attempting to land at Sydney Airport.

There is a nice flash video of what this looks like from the cockpit here.

In response, the Government has banned the importation and use of these lasers unless the operator has good cause. Theoretically, this should not impact Astronomers and laser light shows!

Class 3 and 4 lasers however have been declared as prohibited weapons, and carrying them could attract a jail sentence of 14 years.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
3dkiwi
Wed Jun 18 22:36:15 -0700 2008
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How F'ed up is this. Australia give 14 years. We here in NZ give Bail.

And the guy has enough weapons to either ward of an invasion or start WWIII.

OK a slight exaggeration but come on!

3d

Idiots with green laser pointers...
atrius
Thu Jun 19 06:54:27 -0700 2008
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That's not a slight exaggeration. It's an extreme exaggeration. 30 firearms does not make an arsenal. If it included such things as a blunderbuss, that makes me wonder how many of that 30 was also blackpowder in nature.

Hell, I've got eight right now, with plans for at least eight more. Probably more than that. I also found the article rather sensationalistic. Although that isn't overly surprising.

None of this, of course, excuses the moron from shining lasers at boats and such. That's just stupid.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
President4242
Thu Jun 19 11:57:08 -0700 2008
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True, type of weapon should count.  30 blunderbuses= 2 of my deer rifles.....well, really 3 (12 shot clip).

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Michael Smith
Thu Jun 19 15:14:46 -0700 2008
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That's not a slight exaggeration. It's an extreme exaggeration. 30 firearms does not make an arsenal.

By NZ or Australian standards believe me, it does.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
John Dalton
Wed Jun 18 22:45:05 -0700 2008
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This is an idiotic law for two reasons:

  1. It is unenforceable.
  2. It is mistargeted.

Unenforceable law is an avenue to abuse, selective application and corruption.  The class of a laser depends on what optics are attached to it.  No police officer is qualified to determine what class a laser belongs to if the classification labels on it have been removed.  The law can be translated as "don't piss a police officer off if you are carrying *any* type of laser".

The law is mistargeted as the problem is columnated light sources, not lasers.  The law will not solve the problem of planes being targeted but will inconvenience and block those who require a coherent light source. Any small light source can be columnated and used to dazzle a pilot, for example a car headlight with columnating optics.  Searchlights were used to dazzle pilots before the invention of the laser.  Only the laser is practical for making holograms or doing optical experiments with coherent light.  No other light source has the frequency response of a laser diode.  The NSW government has just blocked innovation in the field of optics, without protecting planes.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Richard Young
Wed Jun 18 23:58:51 -0700 2008
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No police officer is qualified to determine what class a laser belongs to if the classification labels on it have been removed

I agree with you on this point.

But it can be referred back to an expert in this field.

I think that the main target of these laws is the brain dead teen who can order these laser pointers straight off e-bay.  He wouldn't know how to focus a headlight beam for instance, but does know how to operate an on / off switch.

The NSW government has just blocked innovation in the field of optics, without protecting planes.

I presume that you mean the lasers that are now prohibited?  Would a licensing system provide a suitable balance between protecting people from idiots and technological innovators?

To play Devils advocate for a minute...What do you think would work to stop these teens (Although one person caught by the police was in his mid twenties!) from obtaining these portable lasers and beaming them towards aircraft?

Idiots with green laser pointers...
John Dalton
Thu Jun 19 02:53:12 -0700 2008
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Licensing schemes make the assumption that the developer is affiliated with a University or company with the profile and resources to go through the registration process.  They lock out the Bill Hewlett and David Packards of this world.

There is nothing wrong with a person (including a teen) obtaining or possessing a laser. (The law doesn't distinguish between portable/non-portable.) To think otherwise is to do away with the presumption of innocence.  There is something wrong with a person (teen or not) shining that laser at an aeroplane.The law was already adequate to deal with people shining lights at aircraft.  Shine a light at an aeroplane and you have broken the law and can go to gaol.  Simple.  This is about the government being too stingy to provide the resources to enforce the law as it stands and the police grabbing extra powers because they are on offer.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Richard Young
Thu Jun 19 18:10:25 -0700 2008
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Would it make sense to start with a proof of age identification to purchase these products?

You won't cut out the determined this way, but you may cut out some of the underage dick heads.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
atrius
Thu Jun 19 06:43:04 -0700 2008
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This isn't really any different than the continual Gun Control debate. Banning an item doesn't mean the item won't be procured and used anyway. About the only thing that will work is hammering the people who misuse the item. What the item is doesn't really matter. Be it a gun, a laser, a can of gas, almost anything can be abused by someone.

You catch and hammer the daylights out of the people who misuse the item. Only then will you likely see a reduction in its misuse.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Richard Young
Thu Jun 19 18:07:27 -0700 2008
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Banning an item doesn't mean the item won't be procured and used anyway.

Absolutely true.  However, you may cut out the opertunists.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Michael Smith
Thu Jun 19 00:00:07 -0700 2008
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Unenforceable law is an avenue to abuse, selective application and corruption.

Its a bit like now you can be arrested in Victoria for carrying a spray can of paint on public transport. Perhaps I could get arrested for doing that if I buy some paint in the city and take it home on the tram. But if it goes to court I should be able to argue that I had not intention of spraying graffiti.

 The law will not solve the problem of planes being targeted but will inconvenience and block those who require a coherent light source.

Just rip the laser from a DVD writer. Probably pick up a few for free on hard garbage day. If you are building instrumentation then yes you need a permit.

Simple, stupid laws might keep things like this out of the hands of idiots. Its not an elegant solution but it might be good enough.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
John Dalton
Thu Jun 19 02:58:06 -0700 2008
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If one has to go to court as a matter of course to argue one's innocence then the law is broken/ambiguous and needs cleaning up.

Its not an elegant solution but it might be good enough.

In this context "good enough" would seem to mean "affects only a minority". Most minorities would disagree that such solutions are good enough and view them as mob rule.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Michael Smith
Thu Jun 19 03:37:49 -0700 2008
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It shoud be possible for the police to pay a somebody to cook up a laser locator. It just has to use GPS, attitude information and a terrain model to derive a coordinate on the ground from a pulse of laser light.

It is such a potentially useful device that the investment would be worth it I am sure. Imagine being able to give police on the ground the ability to designate positions close to them the bad guy is in that car and so forth.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
John Dalton
Thu Jun 19 05:57:58 -0700 2008
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Agree. Also in a typical smoggy city, despite a laser beam being "invisible" there is probably enough scattering that the detector can be on the ground near an airport rather than on every aeroplane. The detector(s) could be fitted with very narrow band filters, tuned to the common laser wavelengths. In this way they can be made extremely sensitive. Photodiodes have a massive dynamic range or an array of photo-multipliers could be used (used in tank night scopes). Cool them for even better sensitivity. I've got an old tank scope here. I'll have to get it going and see whether it can detect a laser beam through "clear" air. I reckon it will as the specs say it will give a usable image under starlight only.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Pseudonym
Thu Jun 19 00:00:32 -0700 2008
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Any small light source can be columnated and used to dazzle a pilot, for example a car headlight with columnating optics.

Then good on them for only reacting to a specific, proven threat rather than blanket-banning everything that could be used in principle to attack a plane.

Only the laser is practical for making holograms or doing optical experiments with coherent light.  No other light source has the frequency response of a laser diode.  The NSW government has just blocked innovation in the field of optics, without protecting planes.

While I agree that this is an over-reaction (I thought it would make more sense to have a licensing scheme such as is used for pyrotechnics), this is hardly accurate.

Very few people need a 50mW visible laser, and those who do (mostly industry and research) are already well familiar with the paperwork involved in getting otherwise prohibited goods.

I work in a chemistry lab, and we use ingredients like powdered aluminium, so you can imagine what we have to go through.  It'll be an annoyance, but no showstopper.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
John Dalton
Thu Jun 19 04:22:59 -0700 2008
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The response is over the top given that there are millions of lasers out there and only a tiny number are being abused. That is hardly proof that lasers are a problem. On top of that The legislation makes no mention of laser power. It is just as illegal to have a death ray as a class 1 laser, which is unconditionally safe to the point where it might not even cause a blink reflex. The legislation is more brain dead than responding to the bushfire threat by requiring a pyrotechnics license for every box of matches. At least a match has the potential to cause the problem being addressed, unlike a class 1 laser. Licensing might be an annoyance to institutions but is a show stopper for individuals involved in laser based R&D. Similarly the exemptions are worthless to an individual who will have to provide the cash for a court defence when they are arbitrarily charged.

For better searching

Beryllium Sphere(r)
Thu Jun 19 10:04:24 -0700 2008
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Anyone who wants to research this should Google for "collimated". This is not a spelling flame.

In other news...

John Dalton
Thu Jun 19 06:03:56 -0700 2008
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The NSW government has relaxed gun laws.  Perhaps there is a need for a "Laser Party"?

Idiots with green laser pointers...
AB3A
Thu Jun 19 07:18:04 -0700 2008
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Like guns, lasers are tools. They have good uses and bad. Banning them is not practical. Government registration isn't particularly useful either.

The reasons for this sort of stupidity have to do with two things: Aviation  noise, and fear of black helicopters. Aviation noise hate has been going on since the dawn of the commercial jet age at the very least. The helicopter conspiracy BS has been around since the 1970s.

Eventually I expect that these fools will cause a crash. I can't wait to see what they get charged with. How about a first degree murder charge for each person on board who dies and first degree assault for each person who survives, not to mention a civil suit for the repair or replacement cost of the aircraft if it is damaged. 

Their freedoms will be gone for the rest of their miserable lives --just as if they'd used a gun or a car to kill someone.

I think an advertising campaign ought to set these guys straight.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Michael Smith
Thu Jun 19 15:24:13 -0700 2008
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The reasons for this sort of stupidity have to do with two things: Aviation  noise, and fear of black helicopters. Aviation noise hate has been going on since the dawn of the commercial jet age at the very least. The helicopter conspiracy BS has been around since the 1970s.

Aircraft noise is an issue in Sydney, but not really in Melbourne. I fly in and out of Melbourne occasionally for work holidays and I have seen green laser pulses on about half the flights I have been on so it is a serious problem here.

Targeting a police helicopter was a really stupid thing to do because of their habit of flying low and slow and their ability to light the offender up from the air. Everybody knows what the police do with their helicopters. I don't think anybody is paranoid about it, which is not to say everybody likes having them there. Shining a laser at them isn't going to make them go away. The people doing this are stupid, but they are not total idiots.

Root cause: boredom.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Richard Young
Thu Jun 19 18:15:30 -0700 2008
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Root cause: boredom.

 

Absolutely agree with one addition;

They are not afraid of any consequences.  They do not fear the police (One of them actually shone the laser towards the driver of the police car that had come to arrest him!)

Actions need consequences.  It's how humans attempt to maintain decent society.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
Richard Young
Thu Jun 19 18:19:15 -0700 2008
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The reasons for this sort of stupidity have to do with two things: Aviation  noise, and fear of black helicopters

I have to completely disagree I'm afraid.

It started with one incident.  Within a month there were multiple copy cats.  This is simply a case of bored feral children seeing an idea and thinking that they should join in because all the bad mutha f*ckers do it.

We have the same issue around bush fire time.

I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone in Australia talk about black helicopters before!

Idiots with green laser pointers...
AB3A
Fri Jun 20 05:05:15 -0700 2008
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Mix boredom with anything else and you'll get similar results. Boredom with cars yeilds accidents. Boredom with chemicals yeilds an explosion or chemical burns. Boredom with lasers gives you aviation accidents. Boredom with guns yeilds injuries or death.

I could go on. 

The point is that this is a social malaise, not something you could fix by banning the tool. Yes, aviation noise and black helicopters are the excuses that people would use here in the US. But you're correct that the deeper cause is boredom.

The solution is a more engaging society, one that includes kids in productive work; not shunting them off to the side, hoping they don't get in to something destructive.

Idiots with green laser pointers...
danielrigano
Tue Sep 02 06:27:54 -0700 2008
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You can buy green laser pointers here http://www.highlasers.com

 

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