Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Nathan Smith

Tue Jul 29 11:13:48 -0700 2008

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So, these are goals which they made up, none of which President Bush actually espouses.

Gas prices

Food prices

Housing prices

Jobs

bin Laden

This challenge is pretty silly, IMO, because it is not as though President Bush could easily accomplish any of those, especially with the time remaining to him.  Plus the software is free for download for 24 hours, not Free as in Freedom nor Free as in Beer for long. Meh.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

zuzulo

Tue Jul 29 11:34:07 -0700 2008

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Frankly I will be perfectly happy if Bush and Co simply refrain from doing any more diplomatic, economic, social, environmental, or cultural damage during the remainder of his term in office.

I am completely over expecting anything even remotely *beneficial* from his tenure ... I am just praying and hoping that he doesnt do something monumentally stupid like invade Iran or Pakistan.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

zogger

Tue Jul 29 17:35:03 -0700 2008

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Agreed on the "hope they don't's", but I think they will provoke a dose of negative reality by instituting a naval blockade of iran soon. Along those lines anyway, and I give it a 60/40 for a serious false flag "terrorist" attack. The economy is collapsing, and distrust of government is "surging", both executive branch and also congress, the lowest approval ratings ever, along with distrust of big business, because afterall, all those masterminds have been in charge and they got what they wanted, so if their theories worked..we wouldn't be seeing much in the way of economic distress. But we *are*. Therein indicates a serious distraction is needed "real soon now" by the power elite (power elite definition = corporate/political "fearless leaders". They jump back and forth from high level elected or appointed back to BigCo, Inc way too much to not see it is the same thing with mostly the same people). The old phrase that might describe this best is "desperate times call for desperate measures". And I have yet to see from big corporate/government much of any concern over "collateral damage" as long as the goals are met and they get to stay..fearless leaders. Hope I am wrong of course.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

President4242

Tue Jul 29 17:59:18 -0700 2008

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1.  Gas prices:  Nationalize the oil companies- Venezula citizens pay 12 cents a gallon.

2.  Food prices:  End subsidies for food exports- suddenly the US has a surplus and food prices will go down.

3.  Housing prices:  Replace tax cuts for the rich with a $12,000/year subsidy for every American's housing.

4.  Jobs:  Withdraw from the WTO and send out the Navy to blockade the ports.

5.  bin Laden:  Withdraw troops from Iraq and send them to Northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, and reinstate the draft to bring our military strength to 30 million people so that we have one soldier for every Pakistani or Afghani.

ANY one of these could be done in the time remaining to Bush by executive order given the current state of emergency in the United States.  But none of them will, because Bush is actually FOR consumer inflation, fewer American Jobs, and letting bin Laden go free.  All of these increase the ability of his buddies to steal money from the American economy.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Uncle Entity

Tue Jul 29 18:03:40 -0700 2008

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I thought you said you gave up the socialism?

Nah, too good to be true...

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

President4242

Tue Jul 29 18:19:55 -0700 2008

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Just because I've given up on socialism as a long term solution (and in fact, given up on federalism as a solution at all) doesn't mean that it can't be a very damaging short term solution to meet a given goal.

Or are you so ideologically blind that you can't see the benefits for citizens that come from actually having a nation of law and order?

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Uncle Entity

Tue Jul 29 18:35:21 -0700 2008

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The problem with that is you don't have a system of law and order that isn't based on anything but your arbitrary judgment on what is right and wrong, theft and coercion. No thanks.

You don't even have a method to your madness except for some strange corruption of merchantilism.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

President4242

Tue Jul 29 19:17:10 -0700 2008

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The problem with that is you don't have a system of law and order that isn't based on anything but your arbitrary judgment on what is right and wrong, theft and coercion. No thanks.

And your system is nothing more than "might makes right"- the ability to buy weapons to opress your fellow man.

You don't even have a method to your madness except for some strange corruption of merchantilism.

Incorrect- I have feudalism.  You know, the system that actually worked to provide civilization for small groups 9,800 out of the last 10,000 years?

Unlike you who have nothing proveable other than some faith in a mythical freedom that can't even provide a road, let alone money or civilization.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Uncle Entity

Tue Jul 29 23:20:30 -0700 2008

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Sorry. You don't even have a method to your madness except for some strange corruption of fuedalist-merchantilism. Is that better?

And your system is nothing more than "might makes right"- the ability to buy weapons to opress your fellow man.

Yeah, sort of like your totalitarian system where the law is dictated by some arbitrary 'enlightened' fascist ruler who's entire system is based on violent enforcement tariffs and guild slavery.

If you were honestly interested in a quality debate you wouldn't throw out things you know are not true but little minds and all that.

I would be interested in your evidence behind this claim that Lockean natural law is based on 'might makes right' as you claim. Oh, make that a reputable source and not some crazy rant that is nothing more than an appeal to emotion or whatever fallacy you think makes a good case.

Unlike you who have nothing proveable other than some faith in a mythical freedom that can't even provide a road, let alone money or civilization.

WTF, provide a road? That's the best you got? Who do think built the roads before your precious state? Or money, you think that was some dictate from a king or something?

And mythical freedom? What, unlike your forrest spirit or whatever which I'm sure you can prove not only exists but has a valid claim on the produce of nature.

The only thing I'm glad of is that you can't make a lucid argument so no one takes you seriously with your techno-feudalist society with hunter-killer robocops destroying the private property of the serfs who aren't patriotic enough.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

President4242

Wed Jul 30 06:57:32 -0700 2008

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Sorry. You don't even have a method to your madness except for some strange corruption of fuedalist-merchantilism. Is that better?

Nope, because it ignores the fact that for most of human history, guild economics was the standard.  Capitalism, anarchism, and communism are the unproven newcommers.

Yeah, sort of like your totalitarian system where the law is dictated by some arbitrary 'enlightened' fascist ruler who's entire system is based on violent enforcement tariffs and guild slavery.

Guilds aren't based on slavery- they're based on trust and family and tradition, three things that capitalism and communism simply don't have.

If you were honestly interested in a quality debate you wouldn't throw out things you know are not true but little minds and all that.

I know that without a government, a system based on fraud and deciet is default.

I would be interested in your evidence behind this claim that Lockean natural law is based on 'might makes right' as you claim. Oh, make that a reputable source and not some crazy rant that is nothing more than an appeal to emotion or whatever fallacy you think makes a good case.

The emphasis on profit and property rights is enough to prove that one.  Only tyrants are interested in ownership at all.

WTF, provide a road? That's the best you got? Who do think built the roads before your precious state? Or money, you think that was some dictate from a king or something?

Before the kings, before the state, there were no roads.  AT ALL.

And mythical freedom? What, unlike your forrest spirit or whatever which I'm sure you can prove not only exists but has a valid claim on the produce of nature.

Well, since animism is based on every atom being a thinking individual, it's more that man has no valid claim on anything at all.

The only thing I'm glad of is that you can't make a lucid argument so no one takes you seriously with your techno-feudalist society with hunter-killer robocops destroying the private property of the serfs who aren't patriotic enough.

Private property doesn't exist- it's just a convient myth to use to destroy the natural rights of your fellow man.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Uncle Entity

Tue Jul 29 11:31:42 -0700 2008

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-- Rejuvenate the housing market: return the median home price in the twin cities to $233,000

Hold on now...

Two of the 'goals' are for Bush to get average prices down while this one is to get prices back to pre-bust levels which by all accounts were the result of a bubble.

You can't have it both ways, Jeremy.

Asking for price deflation in everything except housing is just not possible without some serious price fixing on the part of government and nobody wants that.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Bruce Perens

Tue Jul 29 15:09:20 -0700 2008

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The housing prices are higher now, he wants them lower.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Uncle Entity

Tue Jul 29 16:20:08 -0700 2008

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One of the cardinal rules of life is that no one ever calls for housing deflation.

Food and fuel are fair game though.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Bruce Perens

Tue Jul 29 17:19:14 -0700 2008

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Except people who want to buy houses. There is a house down the street from me that is for sale for over $1M right now. This is a multiple of what I paid for my own, similar, home. It's clear that we're not going to get young families with children on the street at that price. We're also going to suffer from higher property taxes, my latest asessment was close to $100,000 over what I paid for the house (though not close to what the house might sell for).

Although it's nice that I can make a windfall on the property, it's not so nice that it's worth locking young people out of the home market and making an economic ruin of our country.

Easy loans of a family's 10-year total income or more means that nobody can buy real estate for less than that. It makes sense for the bank, and for property owners while the property is ramping up in price. But once the price has peaked, it makes sense for nobody but the lender.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Uncle Entity

Tue Jul 29 18:01:30 -0700 2008

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If this were true then why is everyone whining for the government to step in and save all these people in foreclosure?

To keep those houses off the market through intervention will only keep prices artificially high and won't allow the 'young families with children' to be able to find a house within their price range in a good neighborhood like would happen if the government allowed the market to operate on its own.

Most people acted under the impression that property values never fall and so a bunch of them are crying for something to be done because they are in an upside down loan. Plus all those old folks who were relying on their homes as a hedge for their retirement who don't want values to fall any farther.

So, yeah, housing deflation is an absurd concept when held up to the general public groupthink.

What ever happened to Prop 13?

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Bruce Perens

Tue Jul 29 18:18:57 -0700 2008

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If this were true then why is everyone whining for the government to step in and save all these people in foreclosure?

I think that all of the people who are in foreclosure would have been happy if, when they bought their homes, the homes didn't cost 10 times their annual income.

The folks who are in foreclosure didn't create the situation. They didn't drive the home market up, they just wanted to be in homes and didn't have a choice but to play the game, if they wanted to live somewhere that had work.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

President4242

Tue Jul 29 19:37:42 -0700 2008

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One of the cardinal rules of life is that no one ever calls for housing deflation.

I have in the past.  In fact, my response to a local greedy individual who wanted to keep housing prices high is "thanks for pushing the cost of my house up $100,000 over what it is worth you idiot".

Personally, I'd prefer the Kwakiutal method- all land belongs to the Great Spirit and has NO CASH VALUE AT ALL.

Along with all food gathered from the land, all wood gathered from the forests....etc.

Money just gets in the way, and only tyrants want currency.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

squiggleslash

Wed Jul 30 07:03:14 -0700 2008

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Nah, plenty of people do, it's just they rarely have enough money to be listened to.

I bought my home in 2004. This was the peak of the market (here in Florida) and I knew two things: I wasn't going to be able to persuade anyone that homes were overpriced (I had no way of knowing the market would suddenly agree with me about a year later), and if the market adjusted itself to more sane levels, I'd be in a world of hurt if I took everyone's advice and spent $250,000 on the perfect home.

The house I bought cost 2-3x my salary. It was a crappy two bedroom affair that required (and still does) quite a bit of work. I refused to pay more. I wanted to be in a position where if the market adjusted, I may be in pain, but not in crisis. And that's what happened, and I'm so glad I did. Once I've settled some debts my next target is to halve the size of my mortgage within the next five years.

Others believed the conventional wisdom that house prices can only go up. Many of them are in foreclosure. It's easy to sit back and tut-tut at them and say "I told you so", but honestly, they followed the prevailing consensus. Very few people saw what was going to happen, and all the "experts" encouraged people to see property as an investment instead of a home.

Careful what you wish for

wowbagger

Tue Jul 29 12:17:47 -0700 2008

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Given that one way to increase housing "prices" would be hyper-inflation, I would counsel "Be careful what you wish for."

It might just happen....

Careful what you wish for

Bruce Perens

Tue Jul 29 15:11:07 -0700 2008

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I think he wants to lower housing prices. Higher housing prices are due to the too-easy availability of credit. Give money away for too little, and the price of any real property will become as high as it's possible for you to push your credit.

Minnesota Company Will Make Product Free if Bush Meets Goals

Frank Ch. Eigler

Tue Jul 29 13:50:56 -0700 2008

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... also a good publicity stunt, Jeremy.

As in beer, unfortunately

Mathinker

Wed Jul 30 00:50:45 -0700 2008

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Damn! And here I thought there was a chance they'd open source it.

Funny, Bruce, I'd have thought you would have at least commented on the distinction in your posting.

As in beer, unfortunately

Bruce Perens

Wed Jul 30 08:39:01 -0700 2008

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Their company has Open Sourced a ton of code. A good lot of Wine comes from there.

As in beer, unfortunately

Mathinker

Thu Jul 31 03:13:41 -0700 2008

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Yes, sorry if it seemed I was belittling them in any way. I've even used their product a few times after buying Mandrake 9, a long time ago. It seemed to work well, then.

You do have to admit that a promise to open the sources would have been at least an order of magnitude more impressive, since it almost certainly would cause them to go out of business on the spot.