Must be a misquote

Beryllium Sphere(r)

Thu Jul 31 18:28:53 -0700 2008

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Electrolysis was already over 50% efficiency, so it hasn't been improved by a factor of 10.

Maybe they're just referring to the isolated efficiency of the oxygen-producing electrode. That's where most of the losses come from in current electrolysis technology.

Must be a misquote

President4242

Thu Jul 31 18:45:18 -0700 2008

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Depends on how you do the math.

50% efficient, with a 40% increase in efficiency, would be a 90% reduction in power.

Must be a misquote

Morosoph

Fri Aug 01 04:36:33 -0700 2008

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More likely, one tenth of the wastage is being interpretted as a "factor of ten" improvement, so that the new efficiency is 95%.

Electrolysis that might be practical

zogger

Thu Jul 31 19:40:43 -0700 2008

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Maybe not your car...but I have been thinking one of those electrolysers plus a light weight powerful storage battery or three and maybe you could get enough to run your little 3.5-5.0 horse briggs powered push mower on water for a half an hour or something before the batt went flat. Heck, even ten minutes would be fun and actually practical for me. I really only need enough to fill one or two clipping/collection bags a day for chicken "salad" I mow up for them every day (that's what I would use it for) Maybe anyway.

Ya, I know just get a pure electric mower and..those things cost 3-4 hundred bucks for the cordless models! Nuts! I paid 450 clams for my diesel datsun, sure as heck not going to pay that for a freekin mower. I get close to running gas mowers / easily fixable for like 5 bucks or free for hauling away. Just for a hoot you understand. How many people have a hydrogen powered lawnmower yet? Add a small solar panel to the handles, got a nifty angle already right there, good enough from eyeballing it already, keep it parked during the week facing south, keep the battery charged that way, add water, turn it on, wait a few minutes for it to build up some steam, then give it a yank, see if it runs.

That's the basic back of the envelope I got so far..some more pesky engineering details I guess are needed, like I have no idea amps needed to gases volume released and time for that, etc.. It doesn't have to be efficient at all, just fire up and run for awhile.

The idea is to make the lawnmowing cleaner, plus recycle a mower and not need a new pure electric drive mower. Plus it would be nifty cool. Did I mention cheap? Always a prime criteria around here. Gasoline is 4 dollars a gallon. Adds up at the end of the year. I go through around ..geez..most of my mowing is with diesel, but I still use a lot of gas on the smaller ones, I fill two 5 gallon cans around 6 times a year or so, more often in the summer, say once a month I get ten gallons, fall and spring around 7 gallons, winter only 5 gallons a month. Still adds up! I can come up with like chunks of brass or copper, distilled water, some black and decker NiMH cordless drill batteries, scrap wire, and stuff like that. Glass jar, check. I looked into going electric drive for various small engine things, no way, you just can't get the parts cheap enough yet. Not that I have found anyway, even with scrounging. You can get dinky Dc motors, but not anything worth much if you want to actually do some work or have a moving buggy of some kind. right back up into what gas stuff costs or more. So I thought as long as we were cussing out hydrogen, I'd be cranky and see if something there might work, on a pure bleed/loss way. I know perpetual motion won't work, you'll lose from an alternator drive rig, but a storage battery as the fuel source, that was filled from solar PV...that's not perpetual motion, just a string of efficiency losses and energy transfers. I just don't know how much.

OK, everyone rank me for being stoopid! Might as well have some sport here...

Then there's the "not" option and just go to making ethanol and fool around with the carb some. Probably much easier.

Electrolysis that might be practical

Bhima

Thu Jul 31 22:46:55 -0700 2008

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As I understand the current state of the art, the most efficient & effective process which is doable by an individual would go something like this: This electrolysis, Compression into a medium pressure composite H2 pressure vessel, H2 Fuel cell, Inverter / controller, 3 phase AC motor.

 

H2 is sincerely a pain in the ass to deal with… it is so tiny it permeates all sort of things most folks would expect it to.  And I am not sure what sort of compressor would be best suited for sort of thing but I think it’s pretty obvious an individual won’t be shooting for LH2 in his workshop at home and I am not aware of alternative storage / consumption mechanism which has made it out the lab. (maybe I’m wrong and some can tell us of one).  The plumbing to deal with the H2 would also have to something like stainless tubing… which actually isn’t all that hard to deal with. But I am sure that the metering devices won’t be cheap… actually none of this would be cheap.

 

If I was a rural farmer with some acreage and a desire to make my own fuel, I would be looking very, very closely at the ongoing development of  GM cyanobacteria / algae / bacteria  for biodiesel or biobutanol  and the designs of associated closed photoreactors.  In my opinion, for the purpose of an individual building a small volume fuel production scheme in his workshop / backyard, this is superior in many ways to the other methods of fuel production I have seen.

 

For what it is worth Nature has a short article on this electrolysis as well.  

Electrolysis With a Twist

wowbagger

Thu Jul 31 19:44:46 -0700 2008

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That could solve the problem of both solar and wind - how to stabilize the grid. Put a fuel cell, electrolysis rig, and a very simple storage system (like two tanks of water, connected: bubble the H₂ into one tank, displacing water into the other tank). You don't need to store LOTS of hydrogen for a long time - just a little for a few hours. During the day, feed the grid, and what the grid doesn't need makes H₂. During the night, make electricity and water. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Add that to Pickens's ideas for wind in the Central States, stir in a touch of solar, and you could have something.

Who's buying cobalt

zogger

Fri Aug 01 16:27:52 -0700 2008

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I know there has to be investors here who grok tech discoveries, so I just checked on cobalt. Up to a couple of days ago it was going cheap. I imagine this will change soon...