I've been struggling with this one for a while, because it
involves talking about my brother, and he didn't ask to get
talked about, even though it isn't actually about him, just
the difference between him and me.
There was a character in the TV series "Dad's Army"
called "Pike", and the Bank Manager / Captain
Mainwearing often looked at Pike and said "Stupid boy."
Now my brother did very well, went to uni, got his degrees, and
worked his way up, this is the Accenture / PWC / City field, and
he went about as far as you can go, short of breaking into the
Board level, so he clearly isn't stupid, but...
... but, much to mum's chagrin, I often call him stupid,
because while he went down the "management" road, I
went down the "practical" road, more in line with my
dad, so "stupid" in this context really means "out
of touch with the practical realities", and even that
doesn't mean "out of touch", per se, just the
practical realities... this is complex, but important.
It comes down to the difference between casual familiarity with
something, and different fields of knowledge.
This of course cuts both ways, I'd be useless in his field,
and of course each of us probably feels that our own field is the
significant one, he can just hire an artisan, innit...
What is most significant is this, we both came from the same
place, the same environment, the same background, and he, being
older, had first choice, but somewhere at university dropped
engineering and went into management sciences, so the whole
nurture vs nature thing looks slightly askance, we had the same
nature, and we had the same nurture, hell, we even went to the
same school and had many of the same teachers, and the two roads
really separated at school leaving / university starting age,
long after nature and nurture have done their thing.
So anyway, he comes down with a bunch of bits to convert the SWB
series II Land Rover from ragtop to hard top, and while doing
this we touch on my cnc mill conversion and computers and
suchlike, things that to me are all just things you do, not worth
mentioning, but after he has left I think about it, I didn't
consult him or work WITH him in any way doing the conversion, to
me it was a piddly easy job, so you just do it, "grab
that", "hold that there" "go round and check
those bolts are tight".
My brother isn't stupid, but I guess he got treated as
stupid, by me, because he wasn't "casually
competent" at things, I've turned into my dad, and he
hasn't, and I don't suppose that is either good or bad,
it just is.
But the point of all this.
He didn't ask me to write about him, so let's just say my
brother has made good money all his working life, compared to the
working man he is loaded, he is thinking about retiring and
buying a country house down here and a few acres, we're
talking money, he's thinking in retirement he can do a bit of
consulting at 500 quid a day, and thanks to his working life to
date he has the contacts and reputation to pull it off.
So yes, he will bitch about the price of filling the tank with
diesel, same as you or me, but it is just bitching, he
doesn't have a list of wanted toys on the refrigerator that
can be acquired on the cheap now and again, if I don't fill
the tank with diesel every week.
So he sees the same things as me, the economy going to hell in a
handcart, but not only does he see it from a different
perspective intellectually, from the management consultant point
of view, he sees it different personally.
He simply doesn't have the "casually competent"
skills to survive a downturn, just like 99% of my neighbours,
but, on the other hand, he isn't starting from the same
place.
If you pick me, one of my neighbours, and him, probably all three
of us, if analysed by an accountant, have a net worth (once
assets and liabilities are totted up) around zero, me because I
have some assets but no liabilities, my neighbours because they
have some assets and matching liabilities, and him because he has
loads of assets, and loads of liabilities.
But economic downturns don't affect people like him the way
they affect people like me.
I think he is fucking nuts to be considering buying a country
house now, and I know the estate agent is rubbing his hands with
glee, me, I'd wait 18 months for property to crash and buy at
the bottom of the market, but there is the point, he isn't
me.
So "stupid" takes on a new meaning, I think he is
stupid to consider it, bet he... he knows he has those contacts
and that reputation, and just because the proles lose their
shirts, he will still find his 500 quid a day consulting gigs...
the gulf between the rich and the poor.
My brother is basically middle class, dad was working class made
good, me, I'm working class made something or other, not
quite sure what, round peg meets square hole.
This, more than anything, is what I am seeing in society now, the
progression up through working class to middle class is no longer
a relatively smooth slope, there is a real gulf opening up and
that first step between the two is an utter bitch.
Going up you need a rocket assist, going down you need a
parachute, anything else and the "landing" will break
your bones and you topple backwards into obscurity into the chasm
in between the two classes.
So my brother and me, came from the same nature, came from the
same nurture, but there is a big gap there now, and seeing him
outside where the local working class women push their prams from
the nursery past the landie where he is stood, he doesn't fit
into working class any more, he ain't comfortable here.
The similarities between out outweigh the differences, and at the
end of the day ("stupid boy, Pike.") he is my brother,
but the differences are there, and the effect of the differences
outweighs the effects of the similarities... casual competence,
money, recession, none of these things mean the same thing to him
as they mean to me.
Fact is, it is people like my brother who are steering the
economy, not people like me, I don't know the last time, if
ever, he "took care" of something or some bill for my
(our) mum, not because he is callous or bad or mean, he just
doesn't see money the way we do, I didn't even bother
trying to tell him how much (how little) we live on, he just
wouldn't get it, in the sense I might as well be jabbering
away at him in Swahili.
He says to me "I can find an electrician, and a plumber, and
a builder, who all went to school together, so I can just hand
them a set of keys and they get on with it." and I am
thinking "no wonder you get ripped off you stupid
bastard." but then again, when the time taken to manage
these people has to be factored against your earning capacity...
it's chump change, so not so stupid, not even doesn't
care, just doesn't even see that he is being ripped off,
that's what things cost, whip the plastic out and 5 seconds
later it is forgotten.
Different perspective.
So we've done the ragtop to hardtop conversion, he is very
pleased (dunno why, trivial job) and says "anything I can do
for you, let me know" and he means it, fair play to him.
My brother, bless his middle class heart, just looks at me
"You don't want a job, you like doing what you're
doing."
Yeah bro, I like it better than being a minimum wage monkey, but
I don't like it better than doing a real job, making
something, making a difference, and screw the money, but I might
as well be speaking Swahili, so I smile at him and say
"Yeah, beats working for a living." and Jim Morrison
starts running through my head.
People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down
When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange
We've probably all seen it. I was working for this
millionaire before, trying to show him a dogsquat easy plumbing
job I was going to do for him, he just couldn't get it.
Here's a guy who can juggle two dozen contacts in his head,
while talking on two different phones, while sitting at the
computer day trading, pulling off decent deals, and he just
couldn't grok this pipe is going here and this is the valve
and this is the....well, maybe, just didn't feel like getting
it or grokking it, he was never going to have to do that so he
didn't bother using his brain for that, he used his brain for
other. I personally feel like that with advanced linux admin or
programming, there's so many smart guys who know that stuff
and have been doing it for years and I only have so many hours in
a day to deal with all my other chores and projects I just
don't feel like learning it, so I don't. I could start
now, full time, and a year from now be at the "clueless
still rank amateur" status so I don't bother. If I get
stuck, I just google for a fix and follow the recipe, if it
isn't there, oh well..I'll do something else.
With that said, I can see in the upcoming fun and games with the
economy I just don't think I would trade my no college degree
but still extensive "education" I have gotten over the
years for anything else. I am not so sure even the 500 monetary
units per day consulting gigs are going to be there for much
longer for as many of those types who think they will always be
able to get them. Specialization is perfectly all right once you
have covered a very broad base of generalization as a
fallback/day to day practical education. Might come a time one
day the overly specialized and rich guy goes to have his
"artisans" do some work for him, to have them follow
his orders because he was the local fatcat, and when he goes to
talk to them they all have pitchforks and torches in their hands.
It's happened before in history...
You might want to talk to your brother about an investing
partnership, if he has the cash.
Purchase seriously distressed homes -- foreclosed and vacant --
and YOU fix them up. Maybe rent them out at a loss, just to
offset costs. Then, if the market rebounds in a couple
years, sell them at a profit.
I couldn't find good words. Guy's bro' is
"funny", per this description, in a certain way
that's very familiar to me. The attitude comes off, to a
certain kind of recipient, as just stupidly condescending (and
"the attitude" is typically without the metal to back
up that condescension). And, from another more sympathetic
perspective -- well, no... the attitude is kind of sane and
he's also a lot of "conservative" back-up plan for
a tribe of which he's a member. It's an attitude I've
seen a lot, mostly not from close relatives, but I can see it in
that context too. It's not bad, not good, it is what it is
and I don't want to insult the third party dood here so
it's hard to talk about.
But... yeah, Charles... abstracted, yrs is the right corrective
to the problemitization of that attitude. Guy (per available
evidence) is an example of an underexploited resource, left by
the side of the road because during a boom you could get by (fake
it) with lesser, cheaper talent ("we make it up in
volume!"). But, if you wanna go with
"Buffet-style" fundamentals investing then the Guy
types are very seriously at buying price and his brother, with
the inside track on that, is missing a clue. (Of course, this is
all based on internet impressions of Guy. It's possible that
in reality there's simply no working with him, though
unlikely imo.).
-t
P.S.: So, we're (wife and I) moving. New neighborhood lacks
retail. Entrepreneurial opportunities abound but aren't easy
(not a cash-flush population). Little funky produce shop? Hell,
produce-on-wheels? Etc.? Potential investors... on the quirk
chance you see this... get in touch! (lord at emf.net).
I guess Guy's bro just goes for the important things. He has
his plumbing fixed for much more than optimal, but he saves his
brain power for thinking about well paid projects.
This is clever, not stupid. Factor the price of time into your
calculations. Find out what is the price of your time -- how much
can you earn in an hour? If there is not enough work to be done,
find more, get customers.
It's weird how much your behavior and decisions change as you
make more money. I have gone from making $8/hour to around
$80/hour, and I would probably strike you similarly as your
brother. I know how to do almost everything myself, but
things that made sense before (like changing my own timing belt)
don't make a bit of sense when I make more money paying
someone else to do it and spending my time working. In many
cases, even if someone is ripping me off (from my old
perspective) I still end up ahead by using them to do work for
me.
I have discovered that one of the things people making a lot of
money value highly is service reliability, followed by
quality. When people with money are willing to pay more,
it's almost certainly because they are paying for reliable
service, not because they expect the job will be done any better
(with exceptions at the very high end where only "the
best" will do).
I agree with your sentiments, in principle, but to give my
brother as an example, he has been so long in the situation where
it was cheaper for him to pay someone to do something that he has
not merely lost touch, he has forgotten much of what he once
knew.
The 3 hour job that we did easily and to a high standard, he
would have taken all day and done a piss poor job, lack of
familiarity with doing work himself and forgetting basic
principles is all it took.
Which brings you back to the question, how long do you have to
make 80 bucks an hour before the person you employ at 8 bucks an
hour could be good, bad, or indifferent, and you don't know
the difference, thus, how do you work out earning 80 and paying 8
is actually showing you a profit?
Let me put it this way, you earn 80 bucks an hour, you spend an
average of 15 minutes a day on the crapper, for a total of 1.75
hours a week, and you have sex 3 times a week for a total of 0.75
hours a week.
So you invest US$ 7,280 a year on taking a dump, and US$ 3,120 a
year on screwing, just about half. Do these represent good value
for money?
"<...>he has been so long in the situation where it
was cheaper for him to pay someone to do something that he has
not merely lost touch, he has forgotten much of what he once
knew."
Yes, I'm concerned about that hapenning to me too. I
agree with you that it's not a good thing.
Also, something I have noticed is that as you point out with your
example, you have to start valueing "simple" things at
very high dollar amounts to keep work from consuming your
life. In my case I'm salaried (the $80 per hour is what
it works out to) but if I actually billed hourly at that rate
like several people I know (they actually bill double that) it
gets weird.
Priorities and decisions get even more strange when you are
working on corporate projects where things you could build in
your shop in a day for $1,000 take a month and $50,000 (and
I'm probably underestimating there).
Stupid boy does good
I've been struggling with this one for a while, because it involves talking about my brother, and he didn't ask to get talked about, even though it isn't actually about him, just the difference between him and me.
There was a character in the TV series "Dad's Army" called "Pike", and the Bank Manager / Captain Mainwearing often looked at Pike and said "Stupid boy."
Now my brother did very well, went to uni, got his degrees, and worked his way up, this is the Accenture / PWC / City field, and he went about as far as you can go, short of breaking into the Board level, so he clearly isn't stupid, but...
... but, much to mum's chagrin, I often call him stupid, because while he went down the "management" road, I went down the "practical" road, more in line with my dad, so "stupid" in this context really means "out of touch with the practical realities", and even that doesn't mean "out of touch", per se, just the practical realities... this is complex, but important.
It comes down to the difference between casual familiarity with something, and different fields of knowledge.
This of course cuts both ways, I'd be useless in his field, and of course each of us probably feels that our own field is the significant one, he can just hire an artisan, innit...
What is most significant is this, we both came from the same place, the same environment, the same background, and he, being older, had first choice, but somewhere at university dropped engineering and went into management sciences, so the whole nurture vs nature thing looks slightly askance, we had the same nature, and we had the same nurture, hell, we even went to the same school and had many of the same teachers, and the two roads really separated at school leaving / university starting age, long after nature and nurture have done their thing.
So anyway, he comes down with a bunch of bits to convert the SWB series II Land Rover from ragtop to hard top, and while doing this we touch on my cnc mill conversion and computers and suchlike, things that to me are all just things you do, not worth mentioning, but after he has left I think about it, I didn't consult him or work WITH him in any way doing the conversion, to me it was a piddly easy job, so you just do it, "grab that", "hold that there" "go round and check those bolts are tight".
My brother isn't stupid, but I guess he got treated as stupid, by me, because he wasn't "casually competent" at things, I've turned into my dad, and he hasn't, and I don't suppose that is either good or bad, it just is.
But the point of all this.
He didn't ask me to write about him, so let's just say my brother has made good money all his working life, compared to the working man he is loaded, he is thinking about retiring and buying a country house down here and a few acres, we're talking money, he's thinking in retirement he can do a bit of consulting at 500 quid a day, and thanks to his working life to date he has the contacts and reputation to pull it off.
So yes, he will bitch about the price of filling the tank with diesel, same as you or me, but it is just bitching, he doesn't have a list of wanted toys on the refrigerator that can be acquired on the cheap now and again, if I don't fill the tank with diesel every week.
So he sees the same things as me, the economy going to hell in a handcart, but not only does he see it from a different perspective intellectually, from the management consultant point of view, he sees it different personally.
He simply doesn't have the "casually competent" skills to survive a downturn, just like 99% of my neighbours, but, on the other hand, he isn't starting from the same place.
If you pick me, one of my neighbours, and him, probably all three of us, if analysed by an accountant, have a net worth (once assets and liabilities are totted up) around zero, me because I have some assets but no liabilities, my neighbours because they have some assets and matching liabilities, and him because he has loads of assets, and loads of liabilities.
But economic downturns don't affect people like him the way they affect people like me.
I think he is fucking nuts to be considering buying a country house now, and I know the estate agent is rubbing his hands with glee, me, I'd wait 18 months for property to crash and buy at the bottom of the market, but there is the point, he isn't me.
So "stupid" takes on a new meaning, I think he is stupid to consider it, bet he... he knows he has those contacts and that reputation, and just because the proles lose their shirts, he will still find his 500 quid a day consulting gigs... the gulf between the rich and the poor.
My brother is basically middle class, dad was working class made good, me, I'm working class made something or other, not quite sure what, round peg meets square hole.
This, more than anything, is what I am seeing in society now, the progression up through working class to middle class is no longer a relatively smooth slope, there is a real gulf opening up and that first step between the two is an utter bitch.
Going up you need a rocket assist, going down you need a parachute, anything else and the "landing" will break your bones and you topple backwards into obscurity into the chasm in between the two classes.
So my brother and me, came from the same nature, came from the same nurture, but there is a big gap there now, and seeing him outside where the local working class women push their prams from the nursery past the landie where he is stood, he doesn't fit into working class any more, he ain't comfortable here.
The similarities between out outweigh the differences, and at the end of the day ("stupid boy, Pike.") he is my brother, but the differences are there, and the effect of the differences outweighs the effects of the similarities... casual competence, money, recession, none of these things mean the same thing to him as they mean to me.
Fact is, it is people like my brother who are steering the economy, not people like me, I don't know the last time, if ever, he "took care" of something or some bill for my (our) mum, not because he is callous or bad or mean, he just doesn't see money the way we do, I didn't even bother trying to tell him how much (how little) we live on, he just wouldn't get it, in the sense I might as well be jabbering away at him in Swahili.
He says to me "I can find an electrician, and a plumber, and a builder, who all went to school together, so I can just hand them a set of keys and they get on with it." and I am thinking "no wonder you get ripped off you stupid bastard." but then again, when the time taken to manage these people has to be factored against your earning capacity... it's chump change, so not so stupid, not even doesn't care, just doesn't even see that he is being ripped off, that's what things cost, whip the plastic out and 5 seconds later it is forgotten.
Different perspective.
So we've done the ragtop to hardtop conversion, he is very pleased (dunno why, trivial job) and says "anything I can do for you, let me know" and he means it, fair play to him.
So I say, quoting a line from The Boys from the Black Stuff, "gissajob" (give me a job)
My brother, bless his middle class heart, just looks at me "You don't want a job, you like doing what you're doing."
Yeah bro, I like it better than being a minimum wage monkey, but I don't like it better than doing a real job, making something, making a difference, and screw the money, but I might as well be speaking Swahili, so I smile at him and say "Yeah, beats working for a living." and Jim Morrison starts running through my head.
People are strange when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone
Women seem wicked when you're unwanted
Streets are uneven when you're down
When you're strange
Faces come out of the rain
When you're strange
No one remembers your name
When you're strange
When you're strange
When you're strange